#386 Lucian Russ – Transcript

James Wrigley
Hello, welcome. Thank you for tuning in for another episode of the ensemble Podcast. I’m James Wrigley. I’m joined by Lucian Russ today from me wealth solution. Thank you for joining me.

Lucian Russ
Yes. Great to be with you, James.

James Wrigley
Thanks for Thanks for agreeing to be one of my, one of my first guests on the podcast. I’m a little bit nervous to kind of taking over from from Bernie, he’s been doing it for such a long period of time. So you said to me to be gentle on your usage? You’d be gentle on me as we,

Lucian Russ
yeah. We’re gonna be nervous together tanks. I’m nervous. Jason, say

James Wrigley
Emu Wealth, tell me, that’s an interesting name. Where does the Emu Wealth come from?

Lucian Russ
It was just a good strong name. It’s so hard when you choosing a name. And you got to have one that you know, you got the domains and all the rest of it. And you don’t think you’re gonna have forever to choose a name. And what happens is New Japan says we need that name now, because we’ve got to get the license in Darna. We’ve got to do this not to do that. So it’s just yeah, I just think is growing on me. I have said sure at the start. But yeah, I dislike it’s Australian. It’s strong. And at least people remember it.

James Wrigley
Yeah. Nice. Nice. Bye. I’ve known you for for a little while now, Lucien we kind of originally crossed paths that were doing some stuff with Bas in the social advisor, many years ago. But for people that don’t know you, can you maybe talk us through just your journey in financial advice on how you find a business before you’ve sold it. You’ve spent a bit of time out of being in being a financial adviser. And now obviously, more recently back into it, but what’s your what’s your journey? Like in financial advice?

Lucian Russ
Yeah, so I started off in in London, UK 9697. I think I wanted to be a financial adviser wanting to help people with money that’s important to everybody. But at that time, the industry to be in London was very kind of sales related. So I joined a very swanky outfit in the West End of London, but it was essentially quite a sales organization commissioned only, you know, cold call in four hours a day. It was 100 people on this floor in London, can you imagine a people? I know. I know. It’s massive. Yeah. You know, so after a little while, thought, I care, I’m enjoying helping people but not the sort of sales culture. So you know, during the night, a couple of firms ended up being the sort of pensions expert at a firm in, in the City of London, how we did a lot of our net worth clients in pension transfers, money owed sort of DB schemes and even had to ramify as the person in charge of revenue. During the remediation, I can spit it out for defined benefit transfers, you know, that were in poor advice. Sort of sort of like a sort of a baptism of fire in my first sort of few years in the industry. So anyway, cut cut long story short, came to two guys and five wanted to, you know, he will we will have these sort of things that don’t leave my bucket list to like, to the end of life. So we took two years out, we traveled the world for two years. You know, when everywhere did everything had an amazing time. And then spent three years in South Africa running a not for profit, enterprise skills based charity in Cape Town, which was which was amazing. And then 2009 came back to Australia was married to an Australian, that my wife’s Australian, we had one small child who came back to Australia 2009. So I had CFP, and you know, every single complex, you know, equivalent exam in UK like SMSF specialist, that sort of thing. But he had to do my exams again, which probably good. But then yeah, literally, nobody would give me a job in Australia, but eventually, yeah, like nobody because you don’t have local experience. So you know, you live from London, England and makes it easier, but he’s still that local experience. But eventually Commonwealth Bank gave me a job in the business financial planning. So after if Tony monarchos watching a big shout out to Tony Minako. He, you know, put some faith and trust in me and gave me my first job in Australia, was there for 18 months or so, wanted to have my own show, essentially. So, went to ANP. eventually bought two practices, one in Adelaide, one in Alice Springs and sort of stitched them together. So we had about sort of eight to a full time staff approval and that sort of thing to about 1.5 1.6 Something like that. And, excuse me, was really enjoying it. Um, you know, everything was going well. But then, you know, a&p got hit with all the things that we know, the, you know, had quite a big business loan with large practice, but big business loan and their evaluation shifting really meant a my practice was worth just a bit more I lost about 50% A bit more. Here I’m saying this the line essentially, I’m we’re talking, you know, a few million dollars here. So I got an option to sort of get out, which had felt like I had to take on family’s perspective, but didn’t want to particularly. And then I had a three year, Ebola essentially, so was at the industry for three years. So you know, there’s quite a tough, anybody’s gone through that whole process, even when it goes well. It’s a tough process to go through.

James Wrigley
Yeah. Can you talk a bit more about that, with that? Not finished for anyone that’s new, like some of the young guys that work here and in our business, they won’t be familiar at all with what what people went through with some of what was happening with a&p. So were you one of the ones that ended up here some stories, that was some people that you know, were fighting to try and get out in the first place? What did you manage to get out of it? Reasonably? Easily? Like, how difficult was it for you?

Lucian Russ
Yeah, it’s good question. I look, I don’t know if I want to say too much on the whole NBA situation, because legal situation, and anyone that’s been, essentially, because I’d bought an existing practice, I’d actually bought the shares of the company rather than the book, selection pluses and minuses. But one plus I had was, I had an option to get out, really, with nearly all of my money, which was good, because we took out a big loan, and we’d worked really, really hard over, you know, six, seven years to build it up. And to transform that business from, you know, most a&p. And most advisors have been to this morning commission based practice to fee for service based practice, and it’s, that’s quite a big job, as a lot of people have gone through and know, you know, articulated, you know, value and fees. So I got at an I was quite lucky, but a lot of people honestly had, you know, challenges that will, you know, well documented. And, you know, I still, you know, regardless, I was lucky to have gotten at that point. And I know, a lot of advisors, mental health, suffered seriously, you know, and obviously reports of suicides and things like that. So I think it was a real tough spot, because a lot of people been in there for such a long time and taken loans, and they were guaranteed from the houses and their wives into sort of come home. You know, Freddie body and explain, you know, my business isn’t worth what I said it was worth that we would be alright, we’re not going to be right. And we’ve got these huge challenges found, you know, around the things that go with that debt. So for sure, yeah, I’ll probably tell my sage.

James Wrigley
Well, that’s fair enough. Yeah. So it was

Lucian Russ
an increase are really, you know, well, you know, for people.

James Wrigley
And so he lived in, he lived in Alice Springs for a while. Was that

Lucian Russ
year, so? So maybe that’s why we go with the news as well.

James Wrigley
So yet, so was it the business that you bought? Was it split across Adelaide and, and Alice Springs or was two separate businesses, you won’t have two separate

Lucian Russ
businesses. So originally, we had practice in Adelaide, and bought the practice natural springs, my wife’s mono springs, that’s from Alice Springs, here, right. Okay. We’ve had quite a good connection. Yeah. And then the idea was really live in Adelaide, you know, because we live by the beach and this perfect life, really, and traveled back to Alice Springs. But we ended up after a couple of years. So doing the opposite, live in Alice Springs, and traveling back to Adelaide. So we had a team who had advisors in Adelaide. So I lived in Alice Springs. And that was really good, because my kids were young. So when I was there, I was you know, could drop them off at school, five minutes to the office, pick them up during the school day, if there was some drama or disaster or go to sports day, then pick up that used to pick them up from school as well and bring them to the office because there wasn’t any child care and springs. And the good thing was even I was away, you know, when we can fall, sometimes two weeks in four. When I was there, I could see a lot of the kids and do a lot of running around and my wife was working. She had a big corporate job working full time. So, so worked quite well be based in Alice Springs, then come back to Adelaide and seeing key clients and just been in

James Wrigley
touch with the staff. They’re fantastic. That sounds great. Sounds fantastic. So you got out of that. And then you spent three years out of out of advice for a while, like what we were doing over that three year period. Yeah. So

Lucian Russ
obviously I was involved with Bose gardener at the social advisor for for part of that period. And just yeah, just doing bits and pieces consulting. I was I live in in Alice Springs. So we had a, you know, nice house great life, my wife was working full time, you know, if we had money, so it was sort of unfortunate from that perspective. And then yeah, gone into some board work. So I’m the chair of a disability services provider non springs. And I was on a clean water charity board. And like coaching the soccer team and doing the high school council and stuff, so a lot, a lot, a lot of great stuff I was in involved with, so he and I sort of enjoyed that. But I did ultimately did find this a little one off consulting to be not as satisfying as when you get to work with clients, you know, in a deep way, like most financial planners obviously do, and are pleased to have enduring relationships like I missed that wanted to get back into that. And also, with the consulting side, you’re often finding that you sort of chasing clients the whole time, there’s a fixed engagement, and then the sort of need to manage chasing the next client and chasing. It wasn’t the job to find the providers.

James Wrigley
And so now, Amy wealth. What, what’s it? What’s it like setting up a business from scratch in the, in the current environment, and he spoke to some people and they say, it’s really tough as a sole practitioner to try and do it on your own, you need some form of scale or support? Like, what? How do you start? We’ve got a piece of paper, how do you start a business from scratch and financial advice?

Lucian Russ
Yeah, look, I think there’s probably no such thing about this on the on the on the car this morning, there’s, there’s probably two ways to do it, there’s sort of a legacy way to do it, where you’ve got some sort of legacy from legacy clients or a client list or following and then you’re sort of, you know, doing what you used to do, maybe you have some improvements. And that’s probably the smarter, easy way to do it to be honest, because you’ve got revenue from day one, here. And then there’s probably the other way of doing it, which is the path I went down, which is, what necessarily the best way to do it. But when you want to create something new, you want to do something different. You don’t have that sort of legacy books, sort of, you know, ways of doing things holding you back. We don’t have those revenue streams or clients yet, even you just want to do something new, fresh, different. And that Yeah, and that’s definitely, yeah, tough God, I’d put we would do most things completely differently if I had my time again, Peter. But I think at the same time, you know, it’s, it’s, it’s a journey, don’t go on, because it’s easy, or quick or simple. I think it’s a journey and go on, because you sort of believe in advice fundamentally. And you believe in helping people and you believe that it should be done a certain way, and you want to uphold those values. Some people can do with big corporates and other practices, some people find them at sport, it’s important to try and do it. So there.

James Wrigley
Yeah, so who are you? Who are you working with now, like, who’s the typical thing you have quiet.

Lucian Russ
So we’re still very much a micro business. So like, I’ve had been lucky enough to have lots of great mentors from pi career, like sort of Bill Bacharach bas Gardner, Jim Stackpole people that recently, and really having one of these key things is can you grow a designed for wealth business, without going through the activity phase, you know, activity phases, classically, obviously, when he sort of just take on most clients get the activity up, you know, get get the cash flow going for? Can you focus on just the ideal clients who want from the start. So that was my sort of key thing, I’d wanted to focus on sort of ideal clients from start to the, there’s always a challenge and a benefit problem of taken on too much activities, as we all know, it can fall into an activity trap, we just end up with a load of lower value clients, he can’t sort of make money from long term. And you’re stuck in that activity zone was the flip side of that be just trying to take on ideal clients for whatever you’re trying to build, then the more difficult because it’s longer, takes more to find those clients, and you haven’t got the cash flow coming in. So at the moment, we’re probably 5050 have taken on some clients who we love working with, you know, maybe like a three, four grand sort of minimum to get them in the door. And, you know, and to do a really good job for them and do it effectively. But also, yeah, target 10 clients and that sort of six to 20 grand range where we’ve got more complexity, we’ve got more comprehensive advice in where you know, that sort of traditional, trusted visor model or Principal Advisor, whatever you want to call it, but you’ve been sort of digging deep for providing that sort of holistic advice. Have you

James Wrigley
have you mapped out what that what your ideal engagement looks like for that? Mentioned someone that’s going to pay somewhere between six and $20,000 of not small fee? What have you mapped out? Like, in your mind, if this ideal client walks through the door, what that journey is that you’re taking them on to hit what that looks like?

Lucian Russ
Yeah, and I think there’s a few things that, you know, a client needs to want and appreciate, I think that to get any client that particularly an ideal clients, I think, ultimately, you know, as most of us know, that they’ve got to be somebody that, you know, wants advice and wants to have a relationship, you know, to sort of break it down, what what are we providing is really a relationship at the end of the day, farms that somebody feels like, we’re in their corner, we’re sort of batting for them, we haven’t any conflict from gun, any distractions, and that we’re just talking about things that are not, you know, just product and structure and all these things we’re talking about, you know, what’s their values, what’s their goals? You know, those sorts of things. So, so I think definitely looking for sort of some good goals, somebody who’s in reasonably good financial position. And somebody that’s got some complexity now that complexity could be technical. But it could be as simple as, you know, bad spending habits, or, you know, a couple of that can’t agree on what the direction of travel should be. And I think that whole concept of, you know, drilling into, you know, what is really, really important, what the client is valued, what they’re stuck on, and sort of just taking that from a holistic, you know, perspective, and just listening for what are they really trying to achieve from day one, rather than just diving into, okay, but it all sounds great, let’s look at secret investments, and all that sort of stuff, it’s really well, maybe for client, it’s not fixing their spending habits, you know, we’ll get no estate plans for the day, all their tax returns up to date. So it’s just really listening, what what is the main pain point that we got to solve before we get them thinking, in a long term, engage that deeper part of their sort of thinking and brain and really start building, you know, a vision of the future that they can both agree on. So not too vague, or bore James, but

James Wrigley
I think that’s why I noticed you put, you put a post up on LinkedIn, and it might have been in the last week or so it was this, it was this cartoon of like a garage, someone opened up the garage door, and with this, this joke of all this all over yours soon, son or something like that, that was was was this idea of you can, someone’s going to inherit all of this rubbish from from their, from their, their parents. I know, in some of the interactions we’ve had and with, with with bears, he spoke or you spoke someone did, it kind of stuck with me this idea of that we typically, as financial advisors, you know, the clients will come into the office, or we talk to them online or whatever. And it’s really, we’re not kind of going into their space, we’re not really going into their world and this idea of charging some type of fee, or as part of the advice project, like actually going into their home and helping them clean up their storage and their filing system and those kinds of things. Perhaps that’s part of their life, that’s overwhelming. Have you have you gotten that deep in any client relationships yet? Or is that where you’re, that’s what your, your thinking, your, your look to do for the right clients?

Lucian Russ
One? Look, I think that’s a metaphor thing. And so it’s a powerful one for me, because, you know, that idea of the Swedish death cleaning, where not when you’re about to die, but when you’re sort of retired, or in that active phase at retirement, you sort of clear out, you know, psychologically, physically, you know, often people are downsizing or so just sort of clearing out and clearing the decks and it’s working out what’s kind of important. So I think, for me, that’s more than metaphor that could be you know, mental things getting in the way. But I think what I learned from, you know, Bill backtracks and the best gardeners for the gym step pools and Carl Richards allies people is that there’s normally something that’s difficult to fix because of some sort of emotional connection or problem you know, whatever it shares that they inherited from their dad, you know, so it doesn’t have to be physical stuff or spending habits because of the you know, that their childhood that’s what you know, they were taught, or you know, we’ve all met them people are great at budgeting, but but not investing. You noticed I was just sort of trying to work out what’s actually holding somebody back what what’s, what do they think is holding them back getting unstuck? Because I think financial advice I sit definitely combination of helping people make make most of the money. But a lot of the clients have enough money, that they’re not necessarily comfortable or confident because they you know, it’s never enough, he can argue there’s never enough he can ever feel sick, right? So it’s not so but just digging in a bit deeper, you can work with a client, he’s got plenty of money, plenty of assets, and they still end up with plenty of money and plenty of assets, but they end up in a much better headspace. So I had this great client, a few years came in, and she had, you know, five to $10 million of commercial property. You know, so all sounds pretty good, no debt, you know, plenty of money roll and then could yield. So we think, but her number one goal was to paint. So she was really an artist. In her mind, she was an artist who’d like the left some of these properties, and they come on the exact situation it was awhile ago, but you know, and she wanted to get an entity built them up, and she was successful. And stuff that was all in her words, kind of using, you know, one part of the brain and she couldn’t paint she couldn’t do what she really loved Ignatian money. So she wanted somebody to come in and sort of predict, manage that and look after it, not to be completely hands off, or just somebody to sort of share that burden or take a lot of that on, so that she you know, she was out of her late 60s, early 70s, she could go back on paint. So for some people that might be read a book on learning language, or travel or play with the grandkids, whatever it might be. But it’s something very powerful in terms of what is the value for clients? And you know, they will tell you, if you ask them for nothing, it’s our job to work out what is that value? You know, and how that fits in with being a financial planner, improving their position?

James Wrigley
Do you have any go to questions when you’re trying to when you’re trying to go down a level down a level and down a level? In terms of the depth of that conversation? Did you have any go to questions that you that you have with clients?

Lucian Russ
Hey, I’m not particularly but I think it’s is this concept of follow the emotional trail? So somebody’s talking about like, the grandkids, and then their investment property? Well, you know, and blurting it all at the same time, then what are you asking about, you’re asking about investment property, asking about the grandkids, so whatever’s got the greatest emotional trail, you asked about that first, so that you can understand what’s actually important to them, and is probably going to be the grandkids rather than the investment property. In the same way, if somebody mentions their health, you know, or relationship or strange relationship with that child, that’s where, you know, for practical reasons, there’s every reason it’s really important just to ask about that. And I think most people will tell you, if you ask the right questions, and I think there is definitely a connection between some of the good clients to work with, generally, are probably emotionally intelligent, and, you know, that and other things that they’re just people you like to work with, and they relate to you relate to them. And yeah, I mean, different people, obviously, as we all know, work better with different people, different advisors, but when you sort of find the right fit, then these conversations can be quite easy to have. And people, you know, can be a burden. Some people do actually want to talk about it, and they’re not talking to you about it. I mean, who are they talking to? They’re not generally speaking, talking to their accountants, their mortgage brokers, they’re doctors necessarily now but they will tell in in their financial planner often here, right, in

James Wrigley
my experience here if you if you ask the right question, they’ll they’ll start to open up about those kinds of things and some clients where they they’re just the way the conversation ends up going there’s there’s things that they’ll say all and I’ve never, I haven’t even spoken to people in my family about these particular problems or whatever else might be going on in on them and life hits you. Yeah, as you said, you follow that emotional trail and ask the right questions, I really start to open up the thanks for that and out.

Lucian Russ
While I was where’s this gonna sound? I do think we’re in French planning industry still, like early adoption phase for these sorts of go deep kind of ways of thinking about it’s not the norm most people are used to that sort of product advice or investment advice or whatever. So yeah, I think advisors who are doing that and they definitely need to be aware of that and position it in a way and you know, explain to the client why you’re doing it, why is it important and just link it into you know, their financial well being

James Wrigley
if it never go back to starting a business again, so you you start with a blank piece of paper you mentioned yet to come up with a name and it was really someone pressuring you quickly. We got to register this and whatever else. What what’s involved is start In the business from from scratch, what what do you need? Talk to talk us through what you need to start a financial planning business from scratch?

Lucian Russ
It’s good question, I don’t think that, look, there’s a few things you need and things that you want. I mean, obviously, in terms of need, then, you know, being licenses is the obvious one hairs. Scenario, and I can talk about that a bit bit more in depth, but I just wanted to find sort of a good fit for, you know, where I was at. And so in Chartreux wealth, so I’ve had a good experience through mobile web coil. And they, yeah, they, you know, made me feel like I could have a home with them. Rob came to visit me. He’s basically Newcastle came to Adelaide to Largs bay where I live, and, you know, came to the local cafe and sit down had coffee. Yeah, and they were just, yeah, suppose we just went to being the big dealer group, you probably have convinced for more personal approach here. But yeah, it’s definitely. But it’s also a massive challenge nowadays, I mean, back in the day, you’d started, you work for somebody get a split of revenue, or whatever, and off you go. But nowadays, with a fixed licensing fee, it’s definitely a massive, you know, barrier for people to start a new practice. So as we all know, it’s gonna be at least 15 grand, if not 25 grand to be licensed. So you know, that’s a big hit for startup practice, I know some dealer groups, who cut you a little deal and waive some of the fees and stuff. So they can certainly help for years to flee. I think fit. PRT covers well. So Chartreux was good, because it was like 2% of revenue, but some of them got a minimum, the minimum which were 510 grand, or whatever it is said he’s, again, if you start that, you know, minimum pi cover is going to be difficult here, around you. And then understanding what else that’s I suppose, drifting into the light to have on the need to have the sort of, you know, website type of thing, LinkedIn profile, half, those sorts of things. So I’m in with Columbus did mine myself pretty much just to get up and running, just to keep the cost down. This choosing a template for the website should up the LinkedIn profile, that sort of thing. And then I think in them want to have so office or home, I think that’s a big sort of question for people. So I started off at home for that a month, and then ended up getting to the office, sort of more like a sort of serviced office, but didn’t have access to a boardroom and a private office, sort of close to home. And that was quite good. Because people then had the option, okay, we’ve gone off as he come into, so it makes his head a bit more established. And if people want to come in, they can, or, you know, Zoom online, for people that, you know, not close to or don’t want to travel or whatever. So yeah, so I think that’s, I think that’s difficult because, you know, again, it’s just an extra cost and you’re just not sure how important or not is, then what you’re doing early. Yep.

James Wrigley
And what about like what about that? Look, services and technology and x plan Calendly? Like it What What if you got into using any of that type of type of services to try and make make your life a little bit easier? A little bit more efficient?

Lucian Russ
Yeah. Which is a general come I think a lot of it. I love advisors, I spoke to that set up at the same time or pick up mine and setting up recently. The choice a dealer group in CRM is obviously pretty close. A lot of people don’t want to use x plan. I’m just talking generally igneous I’ve been favoring dealer groups that easing, dashed advice, intelligence, etc. Because otherwise you just stuck in with your ex plan and if people not escape from it so. So chars dot true we use an experiment go into device intelligence. So for me, that was good. My challenge was I’ve never used x plans. I didn’t want to learn x plan, and then of course, had tolerance. So I went straight on to advice intelligence, which was good. My other challenge was I was never really used to using the CRM, massively a&p word coin coin was considered a weakness rather than a strength AMV. And an idea that I had, I was lucky to have staff that didn’t have to deal with the CRM. So advice, intelligence, so we’ve just been using it as a CRM and sort of basic marketing platform. I’ve just been using sort of free versions of most things. Calendar li see quite good one. So but I think I’m at a stage where we don’t get a lot of people just sort of look into the calendar listing name, brand new regular array ignition. So my spine or two, when I turn to somebody else, and he’s ringing me up on my desk, putting them in a traditional, we don’t have a whole heap of reviews and all that sort of stuff that we need some really well oiled machine.

James Wrigley
And then in terms of marketing initiatives, like what are you doing to redirect the clients that you that are coming to you? Where do they tend to be coming from? What are you doing to try and find them?

Lucian Russ
Yeah, look, I think it’s, you know, I’ve done a lot of stuff in this space. But when you’re the client is always more difficult. You’re your own worst client, I think some time. So I just tried to sort of go for it sort of a broad, like a mixed approach. So face to face meetings with, you know, people who like to have influence or be introduces. And then targeting. Yeah, the usual suspect for sort of introduces so we’ll likely hear we got quite a well defined area, we’re sort of at the CBD party seminar eek. Excuse me clicks. So just targeting local people. And that’s just taken a while to build up those relationships. Because, yeah, because I was up in the territory for seven years and advice. So yeah, that was just the approach just to get to know them and just trying to find what you do and how you do it. But I think definitely takes a bit of time doing and then obviously, sort of LinkedIn approach haven’t really done any Facebook marketing stuff. He gave me an excellent suggestion for Tiktok, which I haven’t gotten yet. I did appreciate it anyway. And it’s still a mallet. So yeah, reading anything sort of superb Paoli. Yet I super groundbreaking shot through the speciallized in UK pension. So as a as a dealer group, we’ve got sort of a big strength in that. And honestly, my backgrounds here, UK pensions and being qualified in the UK and stuff so and so the group level, there’s marketing efforts span and connections, which was one of the reasons I joined charter. I was just talking to someone yesterday that that had reached out to speak with me and this guy spent a lot of time

James Wrigley
most of his working life is Ozzie most spent most of his working life in the UK. It’s only more recently come back to Australia. He was talking about his UK pension and top up or something and I saw something that you put on LinkedIn and like I know just the guy you’ve got to talk to me needs to it needs to reach out to you. He was talking about transcript putting some money into his state pension or something rather to maximize the payment. And I said, Look, I have no idea what you’re talking about. I’m not the person to talk to Lucians that I know to have a chat with about that type of stuff. So yeah, yeah. Good. All right. Listen, Thanks for Thanks for joining me today. Good to have a chat good to catch up and turn it into a podcast anyway. So thanks for joining Good luck with the new business. If anyone wants to find you ask you how you going catch up with where you’re at working as LinkedIn people can find you What’s your website

Lucian Russ
now a new wealth.com So I always made an effort to chat to advisors and you know get ideas from them and share ideas of them and yeah, look thank thanks for having me on James it’s great you’re perfect host for the podcast. He got this beautiful, gentle unassuming yet knowledgeable and way of making people feel welcome and talking with Tamala your LinkedIn videos in your tic TOCs and everything so you know you’re the perfect was in the house this and it’s been Yeah, it’s been great to be on.

James Wrigley
Appreciate it. Thank you for joining me.