#384 Barry LaValley – Transcript

James Wrigley
Right. Welcome back to the podcast. I’m James Wrigley. Thank you for joining me today I have the pleasure, rather of speaking with Barry LaValley. Barry have I’ve had the opportunity to speak with you before years and years and years ago, I’m sure I came across you at a presentation or something probably in person in Melbourne. But Barry, thank you for joining me you’re not in Melbourne right now. Maybe where are you? And thanks for joining us.

Barry LaValley
I am on the west coast of Canada. Actually the coastal bank for Island, just north of Victoria. It is it’s not the beginning of spring. But as it is the beginning of fall there It feels very much like winter.

James Wrigley
Yes, still, and we were chatting off it before we pressed record that is I’m in the city in Melbourne today. And it’s all of a sudden turn. We’ve had a pretty warm end to summer, but quite quick in quite cool already now. So we’ll see how that goes. So it’s a very, I guess, tell us a little bit a little bit about yourself the type of work that you do. You know, I’ve come across you’ve kind of retirement planning Todd type of work, but maybe for anyone that doesn’t know who you aren’t? Can you fill us in a little bit?

Barry LaValley
Well, I’ve been in the financial services since 1980, I guess. So it’s it’s going on a long time, I was an advisor, I was a senior mutual funds executive. And I above 1997 decided to go off on my own. Now. I have a psychology background. And one of the things I was interested in was the aging process, not just for the clients. You know, you had the aging boomers who are still in their middle age or, you know, younger to middle age back in 97. But we were all getting older and I was very much interested in what do we go through as we get older? How does that affect the way we look at our money but more important, how does it affect the way we look at our lives. And I began to lecture on that to organizations, I had a lot of contacts in the financial services industry in Canada and the United States. And I talked a lot about dealing with an aging clientele i i taught a couple of the university degree programs in aging, but not necessarily the financial. But then I used that knowledge to expand into the financial services industry. So I focus on two things. I focus on communicating with an aging clientele. And of course, my market there because of my contacts or businesses in the financial services industry. And the second one is speaking to clients about retirement, but not the financial. There’s lots of seminars and books on the financial. It’s the non financial, what he had go through as you enter into this phase of your life, and what issues do people face? And how do they look at money differently when financial advisors look at it. And so I produced a very popular seminar that I deliver globally, to select groups to talk to their clients, about what you go through as you age things you maybe should know but didn’t and how should that affect the decision making you make on your life path, but also on the finances that are going to fund it? So that in a nutshell is how I got to this point. This is about my seventh trip to AWS and I am so excited every time I get a chance to come down and visit And I keep getting asked back. So I assume that the message is every bit as relevant now as it was 10 or 15 years ago when I started this.

James Wrigley
So when so when you first started it was was it just? Was it your experience as an advisor and dealing with clients that had gone through the aging that kind of formed the foundation of it to begin with? Or was there some university studies or was with Wait, like, where did you get that material from?

Barry LaValley
It was always my intention to focus on this area. And I was an early researcher, because I thought the thing of value that I was going to have, originally as an advisor, was being able to understand clients, you never did that when I was an investment advisor, say in the mid 80s, it was all about money. And for most advisors, it’s still all about money. But I thought, Okay, I got to do something different, and carve out a niche for myself, that I was doing the only kind of, of presentations, etc, that are in this nature. And anybody else who is doing it was an academic who wasn’t focused on the people that have the relationships with aging clients and their money. And that was a financial advisor. So that’s how it all started. I went back at it to my university education, and then it was all application, applying it to different situations, working with different advisors, coaching them, but also working with individual clients. So we can all came together at once. And

James Wrigley
so if you published a, you’ve published a book on the topic, you got a

Barry LaValley
couple of books, I got a book for advisors, called the life first advisor, that is based on the premise that financial advice is based on an understanding of life issues, and how can I turn financial advisors into life coaches, and then the second book was called, so you think you’re ready to retire? And it focused on the end user on the client? And it was based on two premises or two issues? It’s did you know.dot.or Have you thought about dot, dot dot? And it’s really designed to be read in conjunction with your discussions with your financial advisor?

James Wrigley
And so you’re coming out to Australia shortly to host I imagine this series of presentations, is that, yeah, that within the existing financial planning group, it’s not, is it something that I could go along to,

Barry LaValley
I’m working with one Financial Group to do a three city tour of Brizzy, Melbourne and Sydney. And then working with the individual clients of a number of firms. You know, I’m going to speak in Mackay I’m going to speak in double, Brisbane, Melbourne, Sydney, Hawke’s Bay and Christchurch. So I’m gonna get around, I’ve got a number of different presentations. And I also have a presenting at a conference for one of the biggest asset providers in Australia, for him called dimensional fund advisors, is speaking at their conference, working with advisors talking about two or three different topics, but one is, how do you communicate with an ageing client? Iraq? Yep. So it’s a mixed bag? Three weeks?

James Wrigley
Kidding. Yeah, that’s a that’s a decent trip. Can you maybe share for anyone that’s listening? Can you maybe share? Like some of what that what that involves? So as you said, I imagine, yeah, there’s there’s probably a lot of financial advisors that they come into the office and they put up on the board, the this is your numbers, and this is how it’s going and you’re up or you’re down. But But how do we broaden that conversation? What what what, what’s the message? What are some of the good advisors doing in that space?

Barry LaValley
I like to think that the hallmark of a good advisor is to act more as a coach than as an advisor. Because the older that we get, the more we need somebody to help us clarify the key issues that we need to think about, and then give us their insight based on an understanding of us as an individual, but also of the financial implications. And then work with us in a sense of partnership. So that I feel for example, that my advisor gets me understands me asked me the right question, because a lot of poaching is getting me to uncover my own issues and then guiding me to the decisions that I ought to make. That’s a different approach than what most financial advisors do. So that’s that’s really it in a nutshell.

James Wrigley
Yep. Are there particular questions that you would that you would suggest people be asking advisers be asking their clients to dig that little bit deeper?

Barry LaValley
Yeah. The one question that most advisors will not ask is, what is your purpose? Now I’m a very big believer in a purpose driven life that we make our life decisions based on our overall purpose, what do we want to be? What do we want to represent? What’s the money or what’s our life, so that gets pretty heavy. But as an advisor, I would, you know, sit back with a client, Okay, before we get into the finances and investment decisions, Cetera, let’s talk a little bit about your purpose, your purpose in your life areas, your health, your relationships, your, your work, all of these areas are the sum total of your life. And I need to understand not that I’m going to psychoanalyze you, but I have to work with you to make the best financial decisions based on my understanding of you, and maybe more important, based on your understanding of yourself. Does that make sense? It’s a different approach to this. It’s not about money. Money is a tool, money, let you have the life you want. But most people simply look at money as a way to buy toys to get themselves security, to get themselves independence, but they didn’t really examine what that means in their life. I just need to understand how you feel about these things. So that you and I build a plan, we’re not going to miss anything. Yep. So that’s, that’s really the approach that I take and that I teach.

James Wrigley
Gotcha. Okay. We the last time that you and I spoke, when I was I asked you to join me on LinkedIn a few years ago, it was right at the very start of COVID. And you were at home, I was at home. And I was doing a bit of a series of just talking to people at Twitter, that turned out to be talking to people that were in different parts of the world about what was going on in where they were. Do you think? Do you think this like Outlook on retirement and purpose? And all the rest of it did? Do you have a sense that that might have changed for people in the last few years, given what we’ve been through, I

Barry LaValley
think that a lot of people got it, what retirement might be like, at a different age than they would normally have gotten that taste. Let me explain. When we were locked down with COVID, for a lot of people, even if they were still working or working from home, every day was like Groundhog Day, you didn’t see the same number of people, you didn’t go out as much, you know, you were working. But you were also then entertained by the family. And it was it was a strange life, wasn’t it? It certainly was, for a lot of people who were retired, that also is the life one of the keys to a successful retirement. Having things do having purpose. Having structured, if you live a life is unstructured. Most people tend to drift into as I said, Groundhog Day, if you’re going to have a fulfilling retirement, you got to have things to do places to go keeping your head in the game. And and that means living on purpose. It was the same with COBIT, we wanted to make the most out of the situation we were in we had to intentionally create or do things given the circumstances we were facing tournaments a circumstance it is either you’re not working anymore, changing where you work, and now all the sudden, you are in this different reality. You go to which you can make it into what you want, which is what successful retirees do, but are too many, I’m going to estimate 90 cent ghosts exist. And the longer that they go, the more it they just exist. And they get to the point where they stop trying to do new things. That’s quite easy in retirement to nest, and I’m trying to stop people from nesting. You want a good retirement? Let’s define what that II can see your purpose. And then let’s figure out the different life areas you have how you’re going to get that and after you’re out with you. I’ll take the finances and wrap it around that. That’s retirement planning to me.

James Wrigley
Yeah, yeah. And in my experience, it’s when the hard work with a lot of retired clients. And in my experience, those as you pointed out, those that have the most fulfilling retirement are the ones that are the busiest, like there’s one lady that comes to mind. I see her every four months and she comes into the office here and we always make the next we organize, we always organize the next meeting at the end of the current one. So you know we’ve both got some expectation of when we’re meeting up again Trying to find a time with her you know diary for months out in advance, it’s impossible because she has so much so many different things on and she’s one that often think about living a really fulfilling and purpose driven retirement in its she’s just got so many things on the go she’s not sitting at home flicking channels on the TV, just passing the time,

Barry LaValley
I bet you she doesn’t even think about what she’s doing terms filling in time. That’s the way she that’s the way she always live life. And it’s the financial advisor as a coach, and simply ask questions about what people want out of a fulfilled life, and how they can start making that happen even before they retire. So this idea that okay, now you’re retiring, now let’s find some things for you to do. That’s the way we would plan a long weekend, and then free to get started in and watch the telly. Yeah. People to think in terms of what it is, like, it’s really important and define things in life, that are fulfilling, that make them feel like they have relevance. And so, you know, the work that I do and teaching advisors is how to ask the right questions, how to have discussions like you and I are having right now. And how to identify what is purpose in each of your life areas. And then lip to that. If you want to have an afternoon, we’ll have a nap. You can do whatever you want. And the comes from you doing whatever it is you absolutely want. But here’s the problem. Most people buy into that definition of retirement, freedom, your ability to do what you want, when you want how you want. But people don’t do it. They say I can do this, but I’m tired, then they are actually much worse. I’ll do it next week. And then they never get to where I am pretty soon. They’re just living the same life over and over and over. If it were just a few people, James, I would say well, we can work with them and help them. But it is far more than a few people that treat retirement like that. That’s where I approach

James Wrigley
valuable. Have Have you given any thought to instead of was a few people you could the advisors or the people in those people in the lives of that that retirees could do some work on trying to get them out and about and doing some things. But is there? Have you ever I’m sure you probably have pondered if you pondered how, how you could address this, or how we could address this, like on on mass, you know, theoretically a big problem, a lot of people sitting at home doing not a whole lot. How would we do it?

Barry LaValley
Well, it’s a tough thing. It’s a book, now read the book, they get all excited, and then they put it away. That’s if we could convince people that having a purposeful life, actually is a programmed approach, that if they act in this way, it’s in their best interest, we’re very big on adopting things, if we convinced it’s in our best interest. So if I’m your coach, if I’m your advisor, coach, I’m going to share with you how I can get the best out of you to help me help you. But I’m also going to improve your approach yourself so that you can help yourself as your advisor and coach you as an advisor, not use virtually any advisor who’s advisors tell me what to do. The coach is somebody who helps me do it myself. And so if I can train a lot of advisors to take that approach, then I can get them to train their clients. Take the same approach.

James Wrigley
Yeah, gotcha. Yep. There was a you got it. I think it might have been you that I that I heard this phrase like it was your view or someone but it’s along the same line of what we’re talking about this idea of that, you know, we we go on holiday to take a break from our working life, but then when, but then when you’re when your whole life is effectively a holiday, how do you take a break from the holiday, it’s that

Barry LaValley
what suits deaf diaries, as they take all of their active, consider that part of their leisure plan include a work or what we would call work or workplace. And so they don’t work at work activities as having to gain a paycheck or something you hate on a Monday morning that don’t want to do they are taught to look at work as something that actually is enjoyable, easier for them, which means you can be working into 80 or 90 or beyond. And I expect that that most people if they just get the fun out of the work they do they’ll work so so you might retire from your job at Woolworths or whatever but Do you know you can find other things to do people volunteer and really get involved in that that’s word, or taking on a home project or going back to school, you know, the University of the Third Age in Australia is overwhelmed with. So, you know, let’s make light fun, including the nap, you sneak back from it.

James Wrigley
I wonder if it’s a generational thing, or maybe it’s just the time in the workforce thing, but I, you know, I personally do a lot of work with, with clients that are knocking on the door of retirement, they might be you know, late 50s, early 60s, and they’re often coming in St. James, and I’ve got a few years worth of, of work ahead of me, and how do I make best of the last few years of my of my life and what I might have built up until this point to help support and fund retirement. And these column 60 Something year olds are looking towards the time when they don’t want to work anymore, they want to stop completely. And then life’s, you know, complete leisure. But then at the other end, I do a lot of work with people that are often in their late 30s, early 40s, they got young families, mortgages, all of these kinds of things. So it’s a different type of financial advice that we’re doing. But more often than not the conversations I’m having with that type of person, they’re aspiring to get to a point where they don’t have to work anymore where they work because they want to or they enjoy it, they don’t have to because they need the money. But I would say the majority of people, and it may be just the type of person that I happen to be talking to. But the vast majority of those people, at least when they’re in their early 40s, they say to me, we have no intention of actually completely stopping work, we’ll know we’ll go to part time we’ll add an hour we’ll volunteer and their kids canteen at school or something like that, you know, they’ll they’ll they all intend, I say all probably three quarters of them intended to continue to work in some paid gainful employment in some variety, at least in their 40s. And then maybe that changes when they’re in their 60s. But I find it I find a difference between the 60 year old and the 40 year old. Do you have any insight? Do you have any idea of why that might be the case,

Barry LaValley
for all I was told that the training of a 60 year old to look at retirement has been totally botched by our industry, we made it a financial situation, we said you get to 65. And if you make it into unhealthy 65, now you get the 30 years comes out. Yeah, and you can have a 30 year long weekend, and you love your weekend. Think about well how good it’s going to be the work has always been set up as something you like it was something you had to do in order to make the paycheck to add to the pile that you were building up for. Now, not everybody did that a lot. Didn’t say for the continued to say that we’re going to work until they were under. But for many people, you’ve got time. And we were the benefit beneficiaries, many, much more than the area of defined benefit plans as opposed to contribution. So at the income that was coming in, and the whole idea was you were going to have a retirement. That was the one that came from uniform surance companies advertising on TV about insurance plans came from financial advisors telling us we had a company here that had the slogan of free to buy, you know, another plans are all 65. So they’re reworking that we were trained to think about retirement as the pot of gold at the end of the rainbow to retirement for most people without a plan without a purpose. That’s not what retirement is for retirement is just plain boredom. And it’s the people that get away from that. Boredom are those people that probably have always tried to do things on their own. But most people get to this point. And they exist because the humans human nature is that if we aren’t doing something purposeful, we fall back into existence, purposeful Angel live on purpose side, you’re going to do something and you know why you’re doing it. The rest, it’s filling in time. So, you know, it’s a different generation for a 40 year old who is not tied in to a lot of the retirement training that we were given an interesting chance I find this around the world. North America, but you know I can work in the last couple of years or three years ago, and it’s retirement was that way to there. So human nature

James Wrigley
Yeah, it’s it’s an it’s a notice The difference that I see in that, you know, there’s a 20 year age gap between between the two generally and the 40 year old, it’s, you know, they’re all, and they’re all bought into, you know, whether it’s social media, whether they’re reading it in books, and often coming in saying, I need a passive income, I need another income stream, I need a passive income, but that we dig into what that actually means for them and why and all the rest of it. But yeah, there’s, there seems to be a bit more purpose. And I said, it might just be the type of clients, the 40 year olds that are seeking out my advice, but it knows some difference,

Barry LaValley
if eneral off. And then I’m almost 71, I was growing up, and you settled, and job until you were five, and then you’ve got the hall and then brace, oh, we weren’t quite as long. We’re a 40 year old to working on your own, you’re you do entrepreneurship. And if you don’t like what you’re doing, you’re used to mobility in the important era employment space. So you’ve got more freedom than we had because of societal pressure on our part. And I tried to influence my 30 year old, you know, like he quit his job again the other day? Well, I got to accept, that’s just the way it is, you know, something moved from employment from working with other people, or for other people, only different for 40 girls than it is quite, you know, I take my hat off to work on your own. Decide what your clients are you decide what you want to do. Bob Egan from from a solicitor to bank manager lineworker

James Wrigley
Yeah, yeah, I’m glad I brought that up and actually make, you know, makes a whole lot of sense. So, back to the the presentations that you’re you’re going to be doing around Australia, and it sounds like mostly up and down the east coast of Australia is is there. People? Are they all for the client presentations. But is there any opportunity for anyone else? That’s not part of those groups to come along? Is there anything that’s more more public? Or it’s all?

Barry LaValley
Yeah, certainly is. In every cent are speaking to the general public. Well, then, ice and probably, obviously, there for the clients of the firm putting it on, but all have agreed, open. Because the message is not selling the firm and selling the message. So I think you’ll find in any of the places and I will put on my website and give it to you for your website, on where things are. Because I’m certainly covering enough of the country. Companies something somewhere close that your clients go to Yeah. is sponsored by shadforth. They will take your money, give you an invite if you contact them.

James Wrigley
Thanks, we’ll I’ll get that we’ll get the details from you and put it in the notes or something somewhere so people can have a look and the books that you mentioned as well. Are they on your website? Is that where can I get those if they’re interested? Yep.

Barry LaValley
On my website. I have that ready to retire just to clean it up. But it has been very popular around the world. And I think both for both advisors and their clients, because I also teach advisors on what to expect in their clients as they get older.

James Wrigley
Yeah, okay. Nice. All right. Well, thanks, Barry, thank you for joining me. Pleasure to catch up with you again. Hope your trip out to Australia and tour around goes well. Thanks. Thanks for joining me again.

Barry La Valley
How can it not?

James Wrigley
Thanks, Barry. Appreciate it.