#38 George Kinder – Transcript

Louis van der Merwe
Welcome to another episode of Financial Planners, South Africa tonight in South Africa. And good morning to you, George, from the other side of the world, I have the privilege to have on the show, the father of life planning and someone that shaped the industry as we know it. George Kinder. George, thank you so much for joining me,

George Kinder
Louis, it’s a real pleasure being here. Really wonderful. Thank you for inviting me,

Louis van der Merwe
George, you are a creator and a creative by nature. And from the work that you put out. I’m curious of how you stumbled on the world of finances and you know, having read your books, the world of taxes. And maybe for our listeners that are not familiar with your journey into financial planning, please, can you share us a brief introduction?

George Kinder
Well, sure. Well, I mean, it’s it’s kind of funny, and it’s ironic, it’s strange, I never would have predicted it. But I’m, I’m a, I was really good in mathematics. I entered Harvard as a with a major in mathematics. But I shifted because I got bored with it. And I shifted ultimately to, to English, but via I went through economics, and I went through art and, and so I was really discovering at that time, that what I really wanted to do, what I was passionate about was creativity, and even spirit, those two things were what I was passionate about. But when I left, when I left college, I realized nobody would pay me for, you know, my poetry or my, you know, meditations or whatever. So I had to make a living. So I went back to my skill set, which was mathematical, and strategic, and tactical, and all of those things that we’re good at when we’re good at math. And, and, you know, I just thought that you taxes and, and financial stuff was a really good way to make a living, so that I could protect that creative side. So that I wouldn’t jeopardize it by giving it away to journalists or to journalism, or to graphic design or something like that. I wanted to do something extraordinary with it if I could, and I needed it, I needed to protect it. So I I entered the field of finance through tax returns, figuring I could do tax returns for a living, and do them just, you know, a few few months out of the year, and then have freedom to do this other work. And that worked for a few years. But the truth is that I was really good at the financial side of things really good at it. And so I attracted clients like crazy, and the business grew and I hired people and so all of these things, all of these things happened. But the way I got into it, so the way I got into it was it was what I was skilled at and then I think the thing that kept me going with it and move me toward the life planning side of it, Louis was that I wanted to be free. I didn’t want to be working, doing tax returns for living. I wanted to experience real freedom for myself and freedom for me meant freedom for that creative side freedom for the spiritual side freedom for Meditation freedom to be in nature. And, and so that moved me toward thinking, how can I use all this money stuff to create freedom in my own life and then in other people’s lives?

Louis van der Merwe
That’s so wonderful. And it’s not often that we hear people are experts on both sides, you know, creativity, as well as the technical. And what you mentioned is that you were so good at this, that people were queuing out your door, Jorgen, in the last couple of years, you know, with a global pandemic, we’ve moved to a lot of online conversations with our clients. And I’m interested to hear your take in terms of how that might have changed the way we practice life planning, you know, is it possible to do it virtually? Or is there still a very strong preference to have face to face conversations?

George Kinder
Well, let me let me answer that by talking about how we’ve done life planning, as a training organization training financial advisors to become life planners. And when COVID head like, I think many people but for us in particular, we had to cancel everything, all of our training programs, all over the world got canceled. And we thought, oh, gosh, is this is this that moment where the business fails, where it falls apart, where we’re done, we’re cooked. And, and so that was, you know, kind of a hero’s journey kind of thing for us going through that darkness, and then figuring it out. And, and, and I don’t know, I know that I was in the lead on this in the community that we have, but they’re, you know, we’re all thinking about it. And finally, I said, let’s try it. I think we could design a training program over zoom, which is the main thing that that people use so so we designed it, our great train the trainer, Louie vollbracht, from the Netherlands designed it, and basically matching what we did, but doing it a resume. And at first we thought, you know, well, we’ll try it, it’s not going to be that good. But because he really need that personal contact, you need that intimacy, our work is all about delivering people into their dream of freedom. By connecting with them so closely, so meaningfully, I don’t mean that we get in their way. But we open to them so much, we listened so well, that they are eager to share who they really want to be. And we just thought you can’t do that over zoom. And what was stunning. I mean, here we’re looking at us, you and me, you know, here we are. It’s not zoom, it’s Riverside, it’s it’s a methodology you’re using, I’m on Google Chrome, normally I’m on safari, it doesn’t matter. Here we are looking eyeball to eyeball at each other, across 1000s of miles of ocean and, and continents, different continents and all of this, and forming a connection responding to each other’s smiles and, and you know, our facial expressions and all of this. And so here you have we in our training, we gather together 1012 people, and then we have three or four trainers. And imagine that, instead of it’s just you and me, there’s 10 1215 people on screen, and you can see everybody’s eyes, you can see everybody’s facial expressions, you can see where they’re getting the slightest bit of anxiety, the slightest bit of frustration, you can hear, because you can adjust the volume. Whereas normally the examples would be in front of you, you know, many feet away, and you’re watching from a distance. And sometimes you can’t hear here, you can just turn up the volume. And here you can see both the trainer and what they’re doing with their eyes and their body and how they’re responding. And the client, the advisor who’s learning. And so, in a way, what we discovered, Louis was that this opened up a whole new ways of exploring, you know that that quality of listening, that is responsive to who a person really is, and who they really want to be, and to training a bunch of other people in having that sensitivity to those issues. So I’m now of the mind, I don’t know, which is better. I honestly don’t know, which is better for doing life planning, doing it over zoom, particularly for training it, doing it over zoom or its equivalents. Or doing it in person, I would say there’s a really good argument for each. And the other thing for us, of course is here we are over 1000s of miles. I can work with people all over the world. So here I am. Otherwise I have to travel and you know, I’ve been around for a number of years and traveling takes a burden on my body I can meet people in a moment, and be in South Africa in one day be in London in the next day be in South America and the next day be in China the next day, with no aging of my body, no wear and tear, no extraordinary expense, and be there. Again, eyeball to eyeball personally, for whoever is there and wants to be there with me. So I think there’s tremendous advantage. I’m excited about it. When I go one way or the other, no, not necessarily kind of depends on the circumstance. Oh,

Louis van der Merwe
that’s wonderful, too. Yeah, how energized you become a thinking that you can connect with someone across the globe. And it almost reminds me of someone losing their sight. And now all of a sudden, your hearing is heightened. And we’ve seen that with some clients where they say, today, I don’t feel like keeping my video on, I just want to have a conversation. And so we can connect maybe on a different level. You talk a lot about training and about listening. And you know, Brad Clontz talks about exquisite listening. And that seems to be a big component of life planning. And, you know, I would even go as far as the financial transitioners to work and financial therapy, the core of that is being able to listen, how do we cultivate that skill? Now, is it? Is it a practical part is a theoretical? Is it just, you know, you listen better? Where do we start, when we start training, the the listening muscle,

George Kinder
whether there are a variety of things we can do. And one of the things is that one of the things we’ve learned and believe in very strongly is that to be a fiduciary, we need to put the client first. And yet all the Certified Financial Planner material, it’s all analytic. It’s all intellectual. It’s all spreadsheets, it’s all laws. It’s all regulatory, I mean, where we’re even this new stuff on the psychology of money. It’s all you know, behavioral finance, again, you’re looking at studies. And so what we realized, and I was probably not merely in the vanguard, I probably started all of this was that the best training for a financial advisor was an experiential one, where they’re actually practicing, listening to the clients and in the extraordinary way that you’re describing, with this exquisite listening. And so So we’ve done experiential training from from the get go right from the beginning. Now, I’m forgetting there were nuances to your question as to what was that fun? The final question you asked Louis there, I specifically, you

Louis van der Merwe
know, training this, this listening muscle. And where do we where do we start, and what you’re saying is that kind of experiential, we need to jump in,

George Kinder
we need to jump in. But there’s another thing that I was thinking of, as you said this, and that is there is a way of training ourselves individually to do it. That is very popular right now, and in the press a lot. And in scientific studies a lot. And it’s the practice of mindfulness. That what what happens is that mindfulness, most people know it’s a meditative practice, it’s the primary way it’s taught is his meeting with the, with our awareness, each moment of sensation of the breath, either at the nostrils or at the belly, that’s the primary way it’s taught. And if we were to do that 20 minutes a day, noticing whatever thoughts come up and letting them go and coming back. We would be practicing, listening. And what we’re doing is listening to ourselves. We’re noticing the thoughts we have, we noticed the emotions that come up, we notice the attachments, we notice the clinging, we notice the stories, we notice all of those things, but we let them go. Because they’re not what’s important. What’s important is being here, right here in this moment. It’s a mastery. It’s a practice of mastery of the present moment. And that’s really what listening is about. So there’s an inner practice. I wrote a book about it called the subtitle of this the art of inner listening. And, but it’s called Transforming suffering into wisdom. And it’s the practice of mindfulness. So we can learn that way to be a better and better listener by listening first inside of ourselves. It’s very much like life planning. One of the sayings in life planning is you can’t be a life planner. Without living your life plan. You can’t be a life planner, without having been life flapped. So it’s that learning that muscle from the experiential side, so That would be another way. But the trainings that we give are all about listening. I mean, it’s just extraordinary. And you know, we have people talking bragging about how they call their significant other, their partner, their spouse, you know, at the end of the of the sessions, and their spouse is going, what are you doing? Because, because the financial advisor is listening so well, and their partner’s never been listened to like that before. So it is something that is trainable. And your clients feel it immediately, your clients, I mean, that the main thing that a client responds with, is a sense of wanting to talk with you more. And if you think about it, that’s exactly what you want. Because what financial planners think they have to present, present, present. And all they’re presenting is the more key of tax law and portfolio construction, and, you know, their designations and all this kind of thing. But what the client really wants is freedom. And the only way that they’re really going to know that that you are on their side, is by the quality of your listening, if you listen really well, they’re going to get more and more excited and engaged with sharing with you who they really are, and what they really want. And that’s something that’s very rare, as good listeners, as we think we are as financial advisors, that’s very rare for the client to get that engaged in their relationship with you. And it’s very important. It’s the only way to be a fiduciary.

Louis van der Merwe
George, there’s so many questions that is popping up in my mind. And we were fortunate to have Dr. Mary Martin, on one of the previous episodes, that she just put out a book mindfulness for financial planners, and I would really urge our listeners to, you know, to pick that up, because she talks about the way you show up, you know, has an impact on your client, even if you do nothing, just that physical presence. I want to talk a little bit about, you know, that part that you said, with the subtitle of your book, transforming suffering into wisdom, and this idea of helping someone not maybe through a very difficult time, but just being able to reduce suffering. How did you get onto that topic of suffering? And, you know, what is the impact if we can help our clients reduce their suffering?

George Kinder
Yeah, let me just show this. This is the this is the book, transforming site. It’s called Transforming suffering into wisdom. And the subtitle is mindfulness and the art of inner listening. So, so it is, and what I, I think, I mean, for me, as I, as I mentioned, I did not want to be doing tax returns for a living. So it was very personal for me. And, and I did not want to do finance for a living. I wanted to, I wanted to live in nature, I wanted to be wildly creative, and I wanted to live a deeply spiritual life. None of those things would anybody pay me for. So I felt that suffering. But what happened was that as I began to talk about it, as I came out into national, and ultimately global awareness, and was asked to speak at all these conferences, I began to, and we’re even working with my clients, I began to realize that so many of them were making compromises in their life. And were no longer as they had been in college, or as children kind of living with the freedom that they really wanted to live with. They were making compromises. And so it became really very interesting to me. And all this time, I’ve meditated for 50 years. And I’ve done mindfulness for over 50 years, and I’ve done it several hours a day. So it’s something even way back then I was very, very familiar with. So I was watching as I was watching what was happening in the body. When I was feeling fearful or anxious or frustrated, I was noticing that I felt differently, my I would get tension in my jaw by my fists would clench, my heart would be faster. I’d feel a fire in my belly. And I realized that there was a difference between kind of the semantics of what was going on inside of me when I was upset, and all the stories. So what I learned was that I learned to separate the stories from the feelings and watch the feelings for in a mindfulness kind of way in a mindful way. Just engaging with them just being present with them without buying into any of the stories. So So using any mindfulness technique, any meditation technique teaches you to let go of your thoughts. So I would let go of all the thoughts, but I would fiercely be there now no longer with the breath, but with the feelings. And what I discovered was those feelings became my friends, that they were no longer fear, some worry, son. And I realized that I was learning to transform suffering into wisdom. So I learned it inside myself, and then seeing my clients come in experiencing that, teaching them that was not as not something that I was getting paid for I was being paid for being attack attacks person, I was never paid for being a therapist, so I never did therapy. And I would caution against using things, unless you’re going to call yourself a financial therapist, I would caution you against and without training, I would caution you against doing those things. That said, the skills of a therapist, the greatest skill is great listening. And that’s something we can use all the time. And a sap probably the second greatest skill is great empathy. And that’s something that clients, again, are rewarded by when you give them that they feel free then to talk more and more. And the third skill that a therapist isn’t as good at as a life planner, frankly, is identifying so the client that you see what inspires them. And you get really excited about what inspires them. It could be their kids, it could be gardening, it could be travel, it could be something spiritual or creative or community wide, and, or the planet and, and you get excited with them. And those are things that are just come from listening inside yourself and beginning to notice it inside yourself. And then learning to do it, practicing it with others as well.

Louis van der Merwe
George, I love that phrase, lighting the torch. And, you know, I’m curious where that came from, because it’s so visual, and it’s so accurate. You know, once you unpack what someone’s true purpose is, and the objectives, tell us a little bit more about that.

George Kinder
It’s it’s an art in within life planning. That’s just extraordinary. It is I mean, the first meeting is all about listening, it’s like 90% of the time, it’s the client talking, and you learn how to listen in such a way that they’re eager to talk. Not that you’re just cold and quiet and you know, like a desk or something in front of them. So you’re really engaged, but it’s not with questions. It’s not with analysis. It’s not with answers. And, and at the end of that meeting, the next meeting is what we call the vision meeting. And in that meeting, we we have some questions that we asked, we have some that I’m really quite famous for. But there are, what we’ve done in the first meeting is the client has talked so much that they’ve begun to talk about what really inspires them. And by the end of the second meeting, or halfway through the second meeting, we do this activity where we’ve taken all their answers to the gold questions. And we put them together into that now what we’re doing in our training is like a video clip, where we’re actually putting the client into that experience of having the most meaningful life really the life of their dreams, in short order. So we never promised something, well, let’s look at you know, when you retire, we’ll give you that you can get this or in 10 years, you can have this know, the life plan works because you the client gets so excited, and maybe a little anxious, too, that they put all of their energy into making it happen. And so there’s that. So that happens at a moment we call lighting the torch where you take the elements that they’ve given you. And you go if as a consequence of our work together, I or we were to deliver to you a moment. And then you describe what that moment would look like maybe it’s a month from now, at most, it’s three years from now, usually it’s half a year to a year and a half from now, a moment where this is happening. And you’re playing jazz and that might clubs that you’ve always wanted to play. Your kids are crawling all over you because they you know, just having such a good time with you. You’re finally getting that trip to India that you’ve longed for all your life. And the accolades in your profession are extraordinary. And and you describe that in really precise terms. What what it’s like, and we call it lighting the torch, and then you go so how would that be? And you’ve studied it so well, Louis that you you’re unerring with it. You’re really you’re very good with it. You’re not giving them something that is so far beyond the realm of possibility that they dismiss it. So you’re, you’ve listened really well to the details and you’ve thrown in details from their life, that make it really alive. Often, it includes a description of the of them, told to them by their, their closest person, their closest, their spouse, or their closest friend, and admiring them. And the setting is one that they have longed to be at. So that it’s just, it’s set up just so beautifully. And, and it’s so incredible, that when you say how would that be, they’re, they’re speechless, they’re there, they’re shaking with excitement, they have tears in their eyes, their legs are moving up and down. Because, you know, they’re so if this is so incredible to them, and they just go that incredible, that would just be incredible. And you know, at that point that you’ve got, you’ve got them where they want to be, you never sell them on something you want, you sell them on what they want, this is who they want to be. And this is the only sale you ever do in life planning, and sell them on who they really want to be and to and have the means to help them deliver it. So that’s lighting the torch and how I came up with that. I don’t know, you know, it’s one of those things. I’m a poet. So I’ve lived the I get these imaginative things every once in a while phrases. And it just it it speaks to that moment, doesn’t it where the client comes alive,

Louis van der Merwe
you definitely are wordsmith and you know, painting these pictures with with your words, I want to talk a little bit about the other side, you know, maybe when that flame goes out? And is there a time when life planning is not suitable, because we have some clients that we’ve been dealing with, where it’s really difficult for them to think about, you know, a stage in their life where they will be able to reignite this flame and and sometimes they even want to derail their goals, you know, pushing it out even further. So I’d love to hear from you, is there a time when life planning is not suitable way, there’s maybe something else that we need to be working on?

George Kinder
Well, there is. I mean, we, you and I spoke at the beginning, you said it at the beginning that the basis of all of this is great listening. And the best listening has two emotional responses within it automatically. One of them is profound empathy, and the other is catching inspiration. And, and, and lighting, little fires around the inspiration of excitement. So we can do that, with everybody, with everyone, the people that come in and say no, no, I can’t do it. Now. You know, that would be someone that I would help us with. Right? In the moment, I would have compassion for them. And I’d share it in a way that they got it. And in that way, they might open up a little bit more about why how much their spouse who just passed away meant to them, and how it feels like a betrayal to them to go forward in any way at this moment. And I just be there, empathizing. That’s right. This is where they are meant to be in their life plan. At this moment, this is where they’re meant to be. And sometimes they may be hiding behind their work in some way. Like you’re saying, they just want to push the goals away. And you know, I’m not I’m not going to push them. I’m a believer that this works. Because our relationship skills are really strong. And we’re just simply there for them in the moment. However they are, how beautiful could that be? Just there for them. When it’s right, they’ll come in and they’ll start talking, they’ll talk more, but it could be also that they go, you know, something like, you know, I just, I just want to be home, I just want to be at home, or I want a new home or say something and you go Oh, wow. That’s so cool. So there is that at least. And they go Yeah, you know, and they did they’ll talk a little bit more about it. And you’re already in that realm of inspiration. What is it that inspires them? You don’t ask them the question because they’re not ready for it. But you’re already supporting them around those energies that are destined to come alive when they’re spring arises. So So yeah, I think there are times where you are just simply there. And that’s all I ever asked myself. So the beauty of that is knowing that you don’t have to be attached to what you do. You don’t have to be attached to outcomes for the client. Oh, I so want them to break through this. Now. That’s anytime you want something more than the client. You’re not doing life planning. Anytime you’re working harder than the client. You’re not doing life planning. What you’re doing is opening and authenticity. You inside of yourself an authentic presence that the client is allowed to is given permission to be authentic with beautiful without ever using those terms, because those terms might turn them off. You know, you just are there in a lovely way

Louis van der Merwe
in in the financial transition is work. Susan Bradley talks about giving the work back. And I love what you were saying, you know if is this your agenda for his clients agenda and almost starting at a lower level of intensity and just saying okay, like we we do we start this journey? Is it at a at a full intensity? Who is it that no, maybe a one dial instead of a 10?

George Kinder
That said, that says I will say that my experience is that virtually everybody is ready to be lifeplan. So, I will say that there are these exceptions. But I will say that virtually everybody is ready to be lifeplan. And the more ready you are to listen really well and to be present with them, the more likely that lifeplan will emerge.

Louis van der Merwe
That’s wonderful. George, you spoke about the role of being a fiduciary. And someone else that often speaks about that is your friend Rick kala. And I know that between you and Rick and Rick Wagner, you know if I understood it correctly, the kind of the founding fathers of the NAS Rutan project for someone outside of America outside of that closed group. Can you tell us a little bit more how that group shaped our financial services operate today? Well,

George Kinder
in the this really came about because of Dick Wagner and me forming a partnership early on and and there were and what what was happening Dec was already a powerful figure within the financial planning industry. He was about to become president of the icfp, which was half of what the FPA became, there was the icfp merged with another big organization called the iafp. So Dick was about to become president of that. And I was a no name from nowhere, I’ve been at Cambridge mass, but i Nobody knew me. And I was asked somehow I came to do a national speech. And that speech was so popular that Dick and I connected around it. And, and DEC, who was this powerhouse in the industry said, let’s let’s do a let’s do a program together. And that was not as written, we just did them a program, a in a retreat setting, we did it three times. It was called the human side of money. And that was really what my basis was, and it was what his passion was. And I brought in all my questions and all this kind of stuff. We had a full crowd, the first we gave it three times. And that was the way they did those things. And these days at in those days. And it was given three times the first time the room was full. The second time, it was standing room only all around the the outside. And the third time, the hallway outside the room was filled with people who couldn’t get in. So Dick and I at the end of that meeting, we were walking arm and arm like bogey and Claude Rains at the end of, of Casablanca. You know, talking about our beautiful friendship, and where do we go from here? And I said to him, I said, you know, we should, we should gather this group together, we should form a think tank and do something with this. And I had told three, I was famous in those days for telling jokes. And I told three NAS Rutan stories. They’re they’re a Sufi Joke, joke kind of stories. And, and he said, George, that is such a great idea. And I was saying it to him because I knew he could gather the people. I was still nobody from nowhere. But he had formed this great friendship. And he had all the political power in the financial planning industry. So great idea. He said, and I’ve got a wonderful title for it. And I said, What’s that? He said, let’s call it that as root and project. So that was the beginning of it. And we did Dick and I partnered for about 13 years around the Nasrudin project and we created and the idea there was the human side of money just to allow people to, to do all these different things and invent and and all of this. And after 13 years, I realized that it wasn’t doing what I felt was the best thing it could do. So I actually left it and left it to Derek because Deke loved it and it was, it was thriving and all of that And Rick came along, Rick was. Rick was in my very first programs, the two days seven stages program, the six day training, he did lots of training with me and then went off with the financial therapy community and created that really in many ways. So that’s where Rick Taylor came in, and wonderful, wonderful man. And so after 13 years, I left because I didn’t feel that it was really doing what needed to be done. And too many people were actually I think, trying to do therapy when they weren’t trained. And were flooding, flooding it and the clients were struggling and they were struggling with a client’s. And I realized that although my first book was really a book of psychology and philosophy, the seven stages of money maturity, which really started this whole movement, but then I realized that people were using it in a way that I had not intended. What I’d intended was for it to help each of us be grounded in the psychology of money, and kind of a philosophy of life. But that what the ultimate purpose of money is in for all of our lives. And the ultimate purpose, I think of financial advisors is to find freedom, and financial advisors to bring our clients to their dream of freedom, and to do it in the most efficient and practical way, which was why I designed the course on evoke and the registered Life Planner designation, because I felt that was absolutely the fastest way to deliver someone into their dream of freedom.

Louis van der Merwe
Thank you so much for that wonderful story. And I can hear how important it is to build a community. Now we, we have quite a strong community of financial planners in South Africa. And I’ve noticed, you know, there’s a few people I know that have completed the registered life planning competitor and Kim frost. But it’s a relatively small group. I’m curious to hear your take on why maybe it hasn’t yet taken off in South Africa, and what we can do to maybe change that and kind of start building on that.

George Kinder
I think I needed to talk to you, Louis. I’m serious, I think I needed to talk to you. And thank you for asking me on the program. Because, you know, I was thinking about this coming in. And reflecting on this, I had a wonderful time. On my trip. I can’t recall even when I’ve taken two trips, or one, but it was only I only got to Johannesburg, I wish I’d gotten to South Africa to Cape Town at all. But I had a wonderful time, we had a two day training that was, I think, close to 80 people, it was one of the largest trainings I’ve done in the world. I’ve done one larger than that in America and one larger than that in India, maybe a couple larger than that in India. So it was a fairly large training people were very excited about it. It’s a long trip, obviously. And the people that I trained, none of them seemed inclined to take on the movement themselves within South Africa. So that had some limitations. But what I realized was, as I was, you know, thinking about our call today, I was realizing you and I are doing this over, essentially a resume, it’s not zoom. But that’s how I think of it. And we’re doing all of our evoke trainings, and all of our two days right now, or at least most of them over zoom. And I realized not only that, but we’re doing them practically in South Africa’s timezone. Because we’re doing a bunch of them in, in Europe. And in England, in England, in particular, there’s one coming up, I think, June 7 to 11th. It’s a four day, we’ve even shrunk it down to four days of resume, you don’t have to travel. So it’s like instead of a five day plus a day decide for travel, it’s just four days rather than seven days out of your life. And it’s this incredibly powerful experience. So what I think I realized was that I wish we had been speaking about it more somehow in South Africa, and letting people know, look, you can take this now. And it’s as if we were coming right there. The internet connection is so strong. So anyway, I think that now is perhaps, of course, we’re coming toward the end of COVID. And people are wanting to be more in person. But we do have this zoom training happening. And we would love to develop trainers in South Africa, who would be excited about continuing to take the work forward. So I think that’s really where I am. I had so many people there were so many people that I had. I felt so such a deep affection for such a strong love for that South African community and wished we could have done more and had more connection and we didn’t even think about zoom in those days. You know, it was like we had to get together or not Get together. And so when you did get together, it was great friendship once again, but hard to do on a regular basis. Now it’s quite easy. So I think it’s time. And I thank you for the prod.

Louis van der Merwe
And I agree, I agree that it’s, it’s time I think, for global structures, you know, to allow South Africans in in and I think that is definitely happening, we’re seeing that we’re seeing, you know, the evolution of financial advice, post product sales, I would argue, even post, you know, holistic financial planning into these deeper, more meaningful conversations and relationships is the Yes,

George Kinder
but realize the love your frame, global structures. It’s a time right now, for global structures that allow South Africa in, I love that frame. And I want to say that it’s true for so many cultures, but it’s just a wonderful frame, it is time for global structures that allow all people in. And just, you and I are so aligned around that, Louis, just thank you. Thank you so much for bringing that phrase to my awareness. Lovely, thank you. And you’re going really

Louis van der Merwe
do know how to ignite the flame. I’m quite excited. Alright, George, I’m curious if there’s any kind of client related stories without obviously mentioning names that stand out for you in the work that you’ve done. It’s often valuable to hear the difference we make in someone’s life, especially for younger financial planners coming into the industry may be struggling, you know, to get through those difficult. First, let’s call it five or 10 years. So I’d love for you to share any stories, if there’s any that come to mind. A

George Kinder
couple of things that I would say, because the literature on me is filled with many stories. And, and I encourage people to look at the book, for instance, life planning for you, which is a series of story after story after story after story. seven stages also has many stories in it. And I couldn’t go there. But I think what might even be more interesting to the financial advisory community that you’re serving. And also, it’s more fresh, in my own experience is the 1000s of financial advisors, that I’ve worked with financial advisors that I’ve worked with, to deliver them into their life plants, and all over the world in 30 countries. So we have found that this works for people in all different kinds of cultures, and cultures of poverty, in cultures that are more conservative and cultures that are more liberal. It works in all cultures, because everybody has goals. And what’s been wonderful. I mean, even I mean, what I’ll just tell one story in the court more the corporate culture that I was sharing with someone the other day, in, in the Netherlands, when we gave our first series of five days and the Netherlands, one of the strongest places, and I know that the Dutch, there’s a Dutch heritage for many people in South Africa, which is quite wonderful. We broke into a major corporation I am Ge, we haven’t done a lot of corporations because they’re mostly into sales and into products. And in at this particular time, the head of IMG was just a wonderful human being wonderful man. And he loved what we were doing with evoke and wanted all of his financial advisors to experience it. So we brought, you know, cohort after cohort after cohort, through the five day they became registered life lenders and and I remember the first group that we brought through, he came at the end, and I had been very friendly with him before but and, and I’d thought of him as a very small man. Because I think the people in in the Netherlands tower over someone like me, and just tower over and the Louie Walbrook towers over me. And so the trainers that I was bringing in and was were training with me, were all towering over me. And I thought he was a small man. Well, he took me aside and I realized no, he’s a good deal taller than I am. And he looked at me very sternly. And he says, I understand that rafaelle Over there has decided when you lit his torch that he wants to play the guitar and doesn’t want to be a financial adviser anymore and he crossed his arms like This and stared at me. And I got, you know, a little scared, you know, because we’re delivering people into their GA no matter what. And then he burst out laughing. He first laughing and he said, what I want for every one of my advisors is for them to be happy and thrilled with who they are. And if this is who he really wants to be, I couldn’t be happier. What a boss, what a CEO, what a wonderful man. And so, so anyway, that’s a, it’s a modest story. But the the, the books that I’ve written are filled with stories about clients, and I encourage you to pick them up and just look at them. Yeah,

Louis van der Merwe
they’re all wonderful. I mean, they’re available on Amazon, in South Africa, you just can, you can click, and it’s on your Kindle. And so thank you for, for this wonderful content, that you’ve actually you’ve almost shared everything. But you know, from our discussion, you can see that the experience part is really where the value lies, it’s building your own life plan with a registered Life Planner. And then, you know, from that experience, and over the work,

George Kinder
absolutely. I mean, the, you know, just a description of how it works, Louis is some, it can be quite stunning for the advisors listening. When you come into that, I’m thinking of the evoke program, in particular, I still do a seven stages have been the majority workshop, or we have trainers to do it. And it’s a great program. It’s a teaser, it’s a two day program, and it gives you more listening skills. But it’s the evoke training, that lights your torch, what happens in evoke training is you are the consumer or the client, and you’re the advisor. So you get life planned, and you also life plan someone else. And it’s real, you’re faking it, it’s not like you’re pretending Well, I’d really like to do this, but it’s not true. You know, you are who you really want to be, and, and defining that so you get challenged around, what, how you really want to live your life. And you same time, you’re working to be a better and better planner, as well as a better and better person. So. So it’s that you get the experience of being life plan and the experience of practicing it day after day after day, and learning the skills of listening, and the art of engagement. So anyway, it’s it’s really it’s quite special. There’s always 10 or 12 advisors and three or four financial trainers, as well. So the the ratio of trainee trainers to advisors is significantly in the advisors favor. It’s a wonderful training. Yeah.

Louis van der Merwe
George, as we come to the end of our conversation, I’ve noticed that you’re putting out a lot more content in terms of interviews, and in a really putting out your name there. Not that you’re unknown, but you’ve taken it to another level. What is the next chapter hold for George?

George Kinder
Yeah, thank you for noticing that, Louis. I think you’re one of the few people that have mentioned that. And, and I really appreciate your seeing that. One of the things that I kind of realized just COVID yet was that number one, I wanted to make sure that my legacy, whatever it is that I put everything I possibly could into enhancing that legacy.

And so one of the things was how can I strengthen life planning, given that I’m kind of isolated in this, you know, house that I have in Massachusetts primarily, as much as I’ve been a world traveler, I’ve mostly kind of honed to this home here. And the other thing that you’ll see, if you go on, I mean, if you go on Kinder institute.com, that’s where you’ll see all the interviews and all. But if you go on George kinder.com, you’ll see something else and see something different. And it’s additional, because in my when my torch has been led, and it has been on a number of occasions, and by advisors like yourself, where I’ve put myself into the situation of being a client. And when my torch has been lit or when I’ve gone back to the three questions that kind of are at the heart of much of life planning. I’ve always had three things at the center of my torch. And one of them was something I called Living in the weather. And it meant being in nature, being alive in nature, being present in it, of just thrilled with it. Second thing that I didn’t realize was related but is was I wanted to live in a deep, deeply spiritual life. And what I have realized doing a practice of mindfulness where you’re focusing on sensations in the body, just in the breath, what’s the difference between them And walking on the beach, being very focused, very present alive, to just the sensations, letting all your thoughts go alive to just the sensations through there. It’s the same practice. And the third thing that I had on my list of things in my torch was I wanted to do illuminated manuscripts. And that these were all things that felt so private to me. And this is true for most of us. And most people The torch has to do with family, among other things. For me, it was these three things. But for all of us, the torture often is very private, and we don’t share with a lot of people, we even feel a little shame that we have that, you know, and that we haven’t completely fulfilled it. So when I came on this property, where I live in here in Massachusetts, 30 years ago, and this is a peninsula that goes out into a small lake, it’s called spectacle pond, I took one look at it. And I thought, this is where I am meant to live in the weather. And this is where I am meant to craft illuminated manuscripts. And this is where I am meant to do my spiritual practice. And those illuminated manuscripts now you go on George kinder.com. And you’ll see I’m giving them away for free, since nobody would pay me for my meditations way back when or my poetry wave I can, I’m giving it away for free, you can get it in your inbox, but I think you’ll find it beautiful. It’s called spectacle pop reflections on spectacle pond. And if you go George kinder.com, you can sign up for it to get it free. And what it is, is it’s a weekly inspiration. And ultimately, it’ll be a daily inspiration, to be in nature, to be mindful, more present to cultivate the present moment, which is the only moment we’ve ever known. It’s the only moment we’ve ever experienced freedom. And we’ve never experienced it in the past, we only experienced it, here and now. So I think of it is even more of my legacy in some ways than life planning. So I’m going to finish finish those books, there’s a dailies and they’ll be done within a year. And there’s one other book I have, that’s called the three domains of freedom. And, and it’s identified in its subtitle. And that book, I’ve got a first draft of, we’re working on the second draft right now. And that book has three subsets of the title is the three domains of freedom. The first subtitle is, each moment is yours. The second subtitle is, your life is yours. And the third subtitle is, civilization is yours. So the first one is mindfulness. The second one is life planning. And the third one, is why I got excited a few minutes ago, you talked about the global structures, it’s time for us to make civilization filled with global global structures that enhance humanity, rather than enhance war, rather than enhance racism rather than enhance propaganda, to build them, so they deliver that freedom to each of us. And it’s time for each of us, as you’re saying, for South Africa to enter for each of us to enter that stream of civilization as vehicles of freedom, models of freedom. For everyone we know.

Louis van der Merwe
Wow, George, I’m very inspired. And I look forward to, to seeing that book, and just seeing this work that you’re putting out. I want to thank you for a wonderful conversation. And the way you really have shifted the global industry of financial planning into something a lot more meaningful. It wouldn’t be the way it is today without you. And I want to thank you once again for today’s lovely conversation.

George Kinder
Thank you, Louis. Great to be here. Really wonderful. Thank you.