#345 Natalie Yan-Chatonsky – Transcript

Jess Brady
Hi, Natalie.

Natalie Yan-Chatonsky
Hi, Jess.

Jess Brady
I’m really excited for today’s chat, we are going to have a very, very interesting, juicy conversation, one that I don’t personally have enough because of specifically, what you do and the people that you help isn’t necessarily who I’ve looked up to before. But I am fascinated both on a personal and professional front. And so I want to upfront say thank you. And it’s going to be, I think, really helpful for many financial advisors. So for people who don’t know who you are, perhaps it’s good to start with, who are you and a little bit about your story?

Natalie Yan-Chatonsky
Sure. So I’m the founder and CEO of a company called full time lives that I founded a bit over five years ago. And the business currently, as it stands, is serving midlife women in helping them design a meaningful and connected lifestyle. And the reason why we’re focused on this particular aspect of all different changes that women are going through at midlife when the empty nesting got elderly parents they might have to care for and maybe thinking about career change, or ageism is happening in the workforce, there’s all kinds of challenges, which makes it really interesting, challenging, and exciting and daunting, at the same time. And so I feel like it’s a really important stage that if you can get it right in terms of thinking about the big picture of where you’re gonna go in the second half of your life, you’re really well set up from a health perspective, having the right networks that are going to support you to do big meaningful work. And it doesn’t have to be just paid work. It can be, you know, work that makes you feel purposeful, the combination of all that’s really important to set up early in your life in your 30s and 40s, leading up to your 50s and 60s,

Jess Brady
where, where did this come from? Like, how did you get to a path where you were like, This is a huge, big piece of someone’s life that is not transitioned? Well, in Australia today, like how did that come about? For you,

Natalie Yan-Chatonsky
it was probably a combination of a few things, you know, personal experience, as well as professional early days of working on my startup full time lives. Back then, I was in a job in financial services, doing lots of customer interviews with banking, operational stuff. So I was working on new payments platform, and we were trying to understand the needs of the operational staff in bank branches of mutual banks. So I was going around to all these different branches of mutual banks and trying to understand how they felt about digitizing parts of their jobs. And you think that that’d be really exciting, like having a lot of stuff that the manual tasks automated high accuracy and all the repetitive tasks being taken care of and a lot faster by machine. What I was really most shocked about is that the people I interviewed were mostly women were really scared of that change. They had been in their roles for at least 2030 years, were very comfortable love their jobs, because it was customer facing their either spoke to customers who came to their branches or serve them over the phone in really critical situations. And they thought that maybe this would mean the beginning of being made redundant. And also, just the idea of change, when they’d been doing things the same way, using all those banking legacy systems for many years, really Thresh on them. And I thought, huh, that’s a really different kind of insight from what I was expecting when I kind of first set up my, you know, what, what did I want to learn about them? Because I thought it was more about learning about the user experience of how should we design the interface of this new software. And so that just really sat with me in terms of that reaction, you know, there were, you know, some women who I still remember being really teary. And I said, I’m not here to make you a donor, I’m here to really make it a great work experience, once this new new payments platform, you know, get set up and your your banks going to be using these new systems. So that was on the professional front. And in the meantime, my family had been having conversations about my dad retiring. And he’s always been in the same job all his life. He’s very passionate about his work. He’s a doctor, his community, his friends are all other doctors. Everything’s to do with his job. And my mum, on the other hand, she’s, I guess, in many ways, has supported him and cared for him and his needs and been the organizer, and cooks for him and does all the holiday planning. And also played a role in managing the clinic to make sure it was successful from a business point of view. So my mum was really concerned about what would happen once my dad retired, and he’d be at home every day with her. And so, I’d hoped she was calling me at work thinking, Oh, my God, this is gonna become a problem for me.

And it just was those two totally different things, observing how people working for a bank, as well as someone like my dad or doctor, who had been the same jobs for decades, or most of their working lives. They were the ones who felt the most threatened by the change, and it had an impact on those around them as well, like my mom. So I guess that was kind of the beginning of doing much more customer research specifically for my business and understanding. What is it to transition to retirement? And how do you do it? Well, and it’s not just about the health and the money aspect, there’s the lifestyle aspect, which no one talks about, totally. So over the last five years, really focused on running programs, having facilitating conversations amongst people at a similar stage in life. It’s less about age, but more about that stage of finished full time work, moving into what I call full time living. And, and what was fascinating and facilitating all those conversations is those aha moments that come up, predictably, each time I have hold these conversations. And so some of the insights that I can share with you would be there’s always a big debate around spontaneity versus planning. And so everyone’s very heated about their style of health, how far out do you plan your life, your money, and careers, and try and control everything. And that’s always very interesting. And there’s no real answer other than perhaps being ready for change, because that’s a constant. Yeah. And being able to respond in the moment. So that’s where spontaneity and adaptability is really important. But at the same time, you still need to be prepared and not be surprised by things that are likely to happen. So. So just being aware of where the world’s going and how you’re going to fit in with the wider world of change. I think a lot of that hasn’t been, I guess, put in front of people to think about early enough. It’s not until it’s too late, that people start to get challenged around the issues of aging, aging in place. And I also, I guess, the financial aspect around that, because the number of times that people have shared their stories around having done a C or tree change. And it was a wrong decision for them financially as well as lifestyle was lifestyle was it’s mostly because they didn’t set themselves up well, because they didn’t get to know that community. They really underplayed the community aspect of moving to a new place. And, you know, having heard enough very similar stories and the regrets that people have, I got really curious as to well, what’s the alternative? How can we do things better? How can we actually inform people early enough, so that it reduces that risk of making those big mistakes later in life that are sometimes not always irreversible, but just more difficult life is harder because I made the wrong choices too early in life. So for me, it’s about making people aware, and having the right conversations early, not much later on, when maybe they were kind of linking these sorts of decisions around just like that pre retirement age. And pre retirement is really long. So I find that generally people wait until they’re just a few years off from retirement. And so that’s why I’ve really decided to focus on midlife because it can be fun. You’ve got time to try different things. Work out what’s right for you. Really get to know yourself outside of your skin of your work persona, and be able to use like if you have the opportunity to access sabbaticals take career breaks. Be proactive about what you’re going to During those times other than just do holiday ever normal holiday, be productive in that time. And, you know, have a taste of all your other interests and activities and invest in building out new networks outside of work in your industry.

Jess Brady
You know what I find fascinating about this conversation, we put the concept of retirement on this huge, shiny pedestal. Like it’s an Olympic medal to reach the retirement phase of someone’s life. And we have all these visions of what retirement means for us. And obviously, it’s individually individualistic, and everyone’s own retirement plans and different. But what we don’t talk enough about is all of the things that you’re saying. The loss of identity, the loneliness, the transition, and lack of community, who is often the people that you associate with, from a work perspective, the fact that you’ve up roots and moved to a brand new town, and you know, no one and think playing golf on Wednesdays is going to be the answer. And sadly, you’re staring down the barrel of what should be this perfect life, and it feels like you’re discombobulated. And you probably feel a bit of shame about it. Because on the outside, you’ve done all the things that make you look like you’ve reached this amazing milestone. And yet, you’re feeling really disconnected and lonely. Is that,

Natalie Yan-Chatonsky
absolutely. And that’s the pain point that I’m trying to address with my business. It’s really sad when people get to that stage, and then they look back at what they could have done. So that the when I hear stories like that, and I’ve spoken to so many people were there, it’s been customer interviews, or in group discussions. And all the evidence is there. of what could happen if you didn’t prepare. Yeah, when you’re young enough.

Jess Brady
This is fascinating. So I want to know whether you think oh, firstly, congrats on the book. Oh, thank you. I’ve read the book. I’m learning that to have great podcasts, you must read the book, huge congrats. I’d love to dive into some of the components that you talk about in the book in more detail. I also think financial advisors, if you have people who are in this midlife who are thinking about the next phase, and realize that they aren’t their job. This is a great book, particularly for women to really challenge that and give them I thought, the exercises and the practical questions that people should work through, was really great. So huge congrats to you. One of the things you talk about in the book, and I want to sort of lean into is the idea that we are so much more than our job, and that other cultures do this quite well. I want to focus fairly specific, do you think that we place too much emphasis on who we are, as our identity through a job?

Natalie Yan-Chatonsky
Absolutely. I’ve traveled a lot, and particularly working on full time lives and doing lots of research tours around the world. That’s been my observation of communities that have long, healthy, happy lives and really supportive communities. People are so much more than the job they had from, you know, post uni right through to their 60s. They’ve got links with their community, they’re well respected. They have multiple interests, that aren’t just to serve them in order to access certain networks or skills. It’s literally some of it’s just for pure enjoyment. Whether it’s an art or sport or combination of few different activities. There’s so much more interesting. When you start a conversation with a stranger in somewhere like Iceland, where I was a couple of months ago or in France, because my husband’s French, all these different cultures that really revere people who are well rounded. And it like in in French culture, you never asked someone, what do they do for work? It’s really rude. So my husband taught me very early on, we were going to a dinner party, whatever you do, don’t ask them what they do for

Jess Brady
you like in Australia, this is literally one of the top three questions that we asked people when we meet them, which is so bad because we’re trying to categorize people into a job.

Natalie Yan-Chatonsky
Yeah. And like, just this past weekend, I was at a school reunion. And I was very conscious not to use that question. Because you can assume someone is necessarily in a job at that point in time, or, or they’re necessarily happy in that job. And it’s a really bad way to start a conversation because it’s assuming a whole bunch of social conventions around success. And so but if you can start a conversation that’s less about who they are sorry, what they do for a living but more about who they are as a whole person. Yeah. And what sort of things interests them. Yeah, what’s on their mind, that’s a much deeper conversation you can get into. And you never know what comes out of it. So yeah, so that’s my observation about Australian culture, we just put too much emphasis on our jobs, in terms of the time that we spend, as well as the planning that we put around it. And then also how we use that as our kind of how we present ourselves to the world.

Jess Brady
And of course, then when you retire, because you’ve had so much of your identity on that job, that would feel like you’ve lost who you are,

Natalie Yan-Chatonsky
absolutely, there’s a massive void. So then, loss of identity creates an emotional void. There’s quite a lot of research around high incidence of depression in much older men who have been retired for a while at MIT in the 80s. And suicide rates. So that’s a real concern. Yeah, whoa. And so we hear a lot of the stats around young men and suicide over the last few years. But it has been reported for a very long time around high suicide rates of much older men who’ve been retired for a while.

Jess Brady
So we obviously need to do a better job of helping people in this stage of their life. In your book, you talk about human centered design, and taking that approach to retirement, before we get to the retirement piece. For us novices over here, can you help us understand what is human centered design? Sure.

Natalie Yan-Chatonsky
So it’s a approach that we take in order to understand the customer, not just from a functional point of view, in terms of what sort of features and functions and pricing that you should put around a product or service? It’s actually also thinking about what pain points, what are their emotional needs, thinking about the human, at the core of every product or service that you design, build, iterate on, model, you know, maintain if the product has been in market for a while. So it’s a repeatable process to start with the customer, do lots of research around them by observing interviewing them, then coming up with new products and services to meet that humans needs? And and then it’s also about testing and learning with that CO designing with that customer with real human Yeah, and ideally, with the people who are actually going to use and buy your product.

Jess Brady
And so how has this approach? Or how can we bring this approach into retirement?

Natalie Yan-Chatonsky
So it’s actually bringing yourself and those around you into your planning process? So similarly, you would start off by identifying what is it about me? What are my strengths? What are my likes and dislikes? And how do I engage with the world? How do I fit in with my environment, my family, my community, and what’s missing? So it’s also aligning with where you want to go. So your vision, your goals, and aspirations and dreams, trying to align where you’re at now? What’s stopping you from achieving all those things that you would love to do or be? And then trying to figure out, like, what are the pain points, stumbling blocks that could be alleviated, unblock those, in order to move forward. So the thing that I often hear people talk about at this stage in life is feeling stuck. Because there’s so many choices. And also if they don’t know themselves well enough in terms of where they want to go, as well as what were the what what’s going on the environment and where the world’s going as a lot of information that they’re trying to rationalize and try and, you know, figure out from a really rational point of view, but if you can start to really think and feel and lean into what would if you could have anything in the world to design your future self and you know, the life that you have, in a few decades. If you can eliminate all the issues, what would that look like for starters? And then once you’ve got clarity around your vision, what are the steps that you can take in order to get there and just keep on breaking it down. So it’s still following a quite a structured approach of iterating and moving towards where you ultimately want to go. But it’s, it’s that whole process of trying to try something small. Don’t do the whole thing. Just take an aspect of it. One Piece, see how that goes. If it goes well keep going with it. If it didn’t go so well. Then change it. And then but still, don’t give up your dream, but try another way to get where you want to go?

Jess Brady
It’s, it’s really interesting when you’re talking about all of these, I mean, these are the conversations that financial advisors are having with people a lot. And obviously, it’s because we’re trying to understand from a financial perspective, how do we make sure that you’ve got enough money and you’re not going to run out of money, we can plan for that. But it’s work. And it’s hard work. And it’s confronting work. And it’s scary. And often, I know, and these are not people that I talk to that are in retirement phase yet, or even thinking about retirement phase yet, this can be really confronting. And it can be really challenging when you realize that the person that you’re on this journey with has a really different belief set or vision of what it is that they want to do. And it requires you to carve out space. And I would imagine that at this stage in people’s lives, that is really hard to to make sure that actually people are taking the time to step back and say, Cool, I know that there’s a million other ways that I’m getting pushed, but actually, I need to be selfish, and I need to take time out to carve out and forge who I want to be. Which brings me to my next point around women’s specifically, because we know that they get pulled in many directions. And they do the majority of excuse me, the unpaid labor in homes, and they are sandwiched, often between adult children who probably still live at home, and maybe some aging parents who have additional needs as well. You talk about in the book, and this was like a little bit of a light bulb for me, men, your decision to focus on women, which we’re going to come to but men often have almost like a linear sort of pattern throughout their life they study. And then often they work in an unbroken fashion, and then they retire. And what you talk about specifically, and please correct me if I’ve misinterpreted this, but this idea of sort of reinventing or getting ready for this new transition, perhaps is easier for women, because we have had to make often many pivots and shifts in terms of who we are, what we do and how we work. And so you actually say that it’s easier for women, because of this, say more, they’re

Natalie Yan-Chatonsky
probably less attached to that one linear track that they know, because they’ve been surprised along the way and had to adjust for others. Yeah, that that’s actually a really great school to have, right now, in terms of when no one really knows what’s going to happen in terms of health events, either your own health or people around you. So I think women have had more time to reflect and get ready. Or if something has been sprung on them, then at least they’re in a better position to be able to drop work in order to, you know, whether it’s having to look after a sick or unwell family member or taking time out to care for children to raise children, whatever it might be. It is something that’s probably a bit more natural and socially acceptable.

Jess Brady
Because there’s precedent. Yeah, yeah.

Natalie Yan-Chatonsky
Whereas I think what we’re seeing over the last few years, we’re seeing more young men and fathers be be able to kind of have those benefits because employers are also recognizing all you’ve got to give parental leave to both men and women, yes, in order to close that gender divide yet work. So there’s some really positive things happening for the younger generation. But I guess there’s some entrenched ideas around gender differences in the old age bracket, where there’s still that aspiration for people to retire and, you know, men feeling like they can’t ask for time off, or having that flexibility of reducing their hours, because they perceive that were maybe I won’t be taken seriously at work if I’m only working part time, whereas it’s more acceptable for women to have asked for part time work.

Jess Brady
I think there’s two things I want to talk about here. First one is I totally get it that women have had to almost reinvent themselves along their life, you know, period career, maybe they then became a mother and I’m doing that in inverted commas. And then, you know, the constant iteration, however, almost at odds with that, is because often they are really busy. Do you find that they are they take that it’s hard for them to take the time that they need to to design the next phase?

Natalie Yan-Chatonsky
Yeah, this is where, in many ways we’re really well set up to keep reinventing, but it’s reactionary. So you’re right. That’s the hard thing. And what’s so interesting at this midlife stage, when perhaps they being in the sandwich generation, the children are starting to leave home, be less dependent on them, or at least, don’t require so much time And you know, I guess, elderly parents, but then once you kind of go beyond that stage of that next chapter and thinking about that, what am I gonna do? And I don’t have to, but serve other people and care for other people and think about herself. Often it’s kind of taking what she can get right there. And then and not necessarily thinking, okay, is this the right move for me for the next few 510 20 years? So that’s probably something that it’s more reaction to what they’ve just come out of and taking what they can, as opposed to really thinking about how am I going to future proof myself for the long run? And that might mean having to extend that break that career break if they’ve taken that career break to reskill? Yeah, it might mean taking a bit of a detour career wise to go and get experience in a parallel area that’s growing and emerging sort of industry or profession. Because maybe she thinks a little bit ahead, that whatever profession she’s in, isn’t gonna sustain her from a health and wellness perspective, there’s risk of burnout, or that industry is already changing due to technology change, or, you know, it’s not something she wants to do anymore. So there’s lots of considerations.

Jess Brady
Interesting. The second part of that was, as you were talking before, my brain was thinking about many of the people that are listening are employers. And it seems to me that there is a really important opportunity to talk to men, particularly men who are getting closer to retirement age around what does the next phase will quack and making sure that they understand that if they want to start stepping down in terms of the amount of hours that they do that that is safe. Yeah. And that that is encouraged. And that this is a conversation that should be a really positive one and not scary, because I completely agree with you, there probably isn’t the older generations, so much, almost pressure to need to work full time, because that’s the done thing. And I think employers probably need to have that psychological safety conversation, to help start shifting the paradigm, otherwise, we’re going to be waiting decades before anything really shifts. So that’s an action on for us. A question to you is, because obviously we’re talking a lot about women. And let’s be frank, many women can’t have the traditional retirement because of financial constraints. But as a more general sort of question, Should we retire? Retirement?

Natalie Yan-Chatonsky
Yes, definitely. I loved this topic. Yeah. So I just think that the, the reason why retirement models were set up, are no longer relevant to modern Australia. And in particular, for women, modern Australian women. If you think about, you know, what was set up by Bismarck, a German counselor hundreds of years ago, back in the day, when most people were in jobs that were very labor intensive, and shorter life expectancy. So it was a pension system for people who were no longer able to do their physical labor anymore, and had outlive the average life expectancy. So it was a way of it was part of a whole sort of redesigning the welfare state at that point in time. So if you kind of fast track to where we’re at here in Australia, and people living longer, the average life expectancy for women right now in Australia is 85. But younger generations can expect to live to 100 100 year life.

Jess Brady
And the average retirement age in Australia for women

Natalie Yan-Chatonsky
is 52, which is shocking. I really had to double check that stat, because I was very surprised when I saw that because that’s a 30 year gap from the time that people stopped work and no longer looking for a new job. And till they pass away to

Jess Brady
huge chunk of time, very long time. And it’s a long time to feel isolated, disconnected, to not have your sense of purpose. Yeah, you have a community or purpose. And so you’ve studied these blue zones or so blue zones, look at areas in the world where people live to 100 Is that right? The

Natalie Yan-Chatonsky
places where people have the longest life expectancy.

Jess Brady
And I want to talk about this concept and I’m gonna say it wrong and you’re gonna correct me ikigai is that Hosea? Yep.

Natalie Yan-Chatonsky
Japanese word for getting out of bed. That’s what it literally means to get up and have that sense of purpose

Jess Brady
and There is a framework isn’t there that that sort of almost like a Venn diagram of what it takes to live a purposeful life? And I would imagine that the sort of work that you do with people is helping them understand those different facets. Yeah,

Natalie Yan-Chatonsky
like really trying to think about is, the one thing that gives you a sense of purpose is a combination of a few different things. You know, there’s no set rule, but it’s more about thinking about a bunch of different questions that help you get to that answer of defining what gives you that icky guy or sense of purpose, interest. So it’s things like, what are your strengths? What do you care about the most than the external factors? What does the world need? What is the world value in you. So it’s not just important to understand yourself, but it’s also that linkage with the world around you, because that’s how you feel useful, purposeful, valued, and you got to understand wherever you’ve chosen to contribute, to have that sense of belonging and being valued by others, because if you’re not in a place where people are valuing it, that’s not, you know, very satisfying. So you really got to, if you don’t have it right now, then find those new places, whether it’s a employer or a community, or some kind of other group that would value what you’ve got to offer and what you enjoy and love doing.

Jess Brady
One of the things that I loved was the conversation that you bring to the forefront around having multi generational friends. Because we live in an ageist society, I think it’s really important to call that out. I think specifically for women, it’s very ageist and also again, shout out to those people who are listening who are employing older people, specifically older women. And if they’ve had big eight big career gaps, understanding that that is quite normal, and that they still have a lot of capability and purpose and passion that they can bring to a job. multigenerational friendships is something that I’m just learning about. And you talk a little bit about two way mentorship. And I think this is hugely undervalued. And I’m like, why don’t we all do this? I don’t do this. What is to a mentorship.

Natalie Yan-Chatonsky
So it was popularized by Chip Conley, who wrote the book, the modern elder, and he talks a lot about his own relationship with the founder and CEO of Airbnb. So they had for many years, a two way mentorship. So chip, at the time was in his 50s. And he had a very successful career in the hotel industry, he had run a founded and run a business that was a global hospitality business. And he retired from that. And then not long after that he got tapped on my shoulder by the Airbnb founders, who are in their 20s at the time, saying, we would really benefit from your leadership skills, because back then it’d be very was fast growing. And there was that understanding of what an older leader could bring to an organization and what you could learn and harness as a young leader, from a much older leader. So he thought he was coming in just to do the mentoring, what he realized was that he learned so much from working with younger people, that it’s actually a mutual thing. They want to let go of your ego, and you actually aren’t just the one who’s imparting information and knowledge and experience. But equally, you can learn from other people who may not be of the same generation. There’s that mutual respect for each other when it’s equal, because you’re learning from each other. And you’re asking questions about the other person, what they know and what they think and why. And that is incredibly useful in terms of staying relevant. So part of the reason why people might feel like there’s a bit of ageism, or, you know, they come across in a negative sense is sometimes you know, they may not necessarily be using the same language or references, and that seems to date them. So it is very helpful to be connected and have younger friends and have sources of information that aren’t just within your own circle of people who are the same age, because that enriches your opportunities to do new things, learn new things, and be challenged totally, because you don’t necessarily have all the answers and how to fit into this whole new changing world.

Jess Brady
And the vibrancy and energy that I think that that would impart in people both ways is exciting. Yeah, yeah, you’ve done this. Yeah.

Natalie Yan-Chatonsky
I do it a lot. And I Get a lot of joy out of spending time with people in my client base who are older than me, hence, interviewing a lot of women who are a few steps ahead of me in life for my book, but then also, I spend time with much younger people. And I like to do the two a mentorship with women in the product management community in the startup community, because I feel like, well, we’re all startup founders, we’re all trying to figure stuff out. There’s a lot of benefit of the experience that I can share with people, what it used to do product management. And also, then I guess, tapping into the insights they might have around the latest types of platforms and digital solutions. So you know that those are really productive and fun relationships to have that are really meaningful to because we’ve got a common purpose and trying to achieve very common similar goals, but in different ways for various businesses.

Jess Brady
I think we all as an action item, I think this is a really important one in financial advice. The mentorship programs that I’ve seen are definitely one way, I think it would probably be accidentally, somewhat two ways. But I think being quite overt in that is is unique, and I think a huge opportunity for us. You were quite strict or you are quite structured about how you approach those conversations,

Natalie Yan-Chatonsky
definitely tell us how to do that.

Jess Brady
We’re gonna go and look at this two way mentorship. Yep. How would you get the best out of that?

Natalie Yan-Chatonsky
I’m probably coming back to what is your ikigai our sense of purpose, starting with that understanding yourself? Because once you really clear about what fulfills you, and what your strengths are and what the world needs, then you can then figure out, well, who are the different people that I could share that with and be valued by other people? And equally, where are some of the gaps? So probably my most recent two way, mentorship has been a younger product manager, who has lots of experience in publishing. And so it was a really, like, we were very upfront, and we’re really happy about the matching. And we actually met through our professional association who have that structure to a mentorship. So we were very clear in terms of, well, this is what I’m seeking, this is what I have to offer you. And then you know reciprocate. So each time we meet, we take turns in whose challenges we’re going to solve, and it’s in our diaries. So it’s all four books. And it’s really clear in the invite, whose turn is it? Is it nuts turn or is it ashes turn, and we have to show up with a problem to discuss and we’ve got the full hour to, to cover it. And, and so it’s really fascinating, because we started off with meeting weekly, and then it’s now monthly to hear the progress that how has that person applied what you’ve shared with them. And, you know, seeing it in their context of their life and their personality and their skill set. And that’s really fulfilling to see that. And equally, she’s been really satisfied to see how I’ve applied all that she’s taught me about how to, you know, I guess not just write the book, but also work on the marketing aspects of it. So it’s been hugely beneficial for both of us from a career point of view, but also just the friendship that comes out of it. Because it’s genuine, it’s more equal, as opposed to one person having one experience that gets shared and you know, it’s very one sided, and it doesn’t last, if it’s just one sided

Jess Brady
100% I did a corporate mentorship in a bank, a large bank, an investment bank, I’ve only worked at a few so people hopefully will know who that is. And I had a really, really, really senior mentor. And I was terrified of him terrified, because I was scared that I couldn’t authentically talk about the problems or challenges or fears that I had, because I was really scared that it was going to impact my career, which is so silly, because that’s why they’re there. And obviously, he wasn’t like he wasn’t a bad guy. And he probably would have genuinely been able to help me but I felt really scared to bring authentic conversations to the table because I fear judgment. And because we didn’t have that two way street. It wasn’t a balanced, I really felt intimidated, which is the exact opposite of why you have a mentor.

Natalie Yan-Chatonsky
Exactly. Yeah.

Jess Brady
So we’ve talked a lot about today the transition or planning for the transition to retirement. Financial Advisors are one of the only people that exist in someone’s life to have or start having these conversations with people. Sometimes we force them upon people who are not ready to help them because they need to be, you know, aware of their situation. But we often miss a lot of the human element beyond goals which we’re getting better at But often it’s goals related to money. How can advisors hold space for these conversations? How can we be having more of these really important meaningful chats so that people do have a full time life that is happy and healthy and productive? Once they stop paid employment?

Natalie Yan-Chatonsky
I think hits financial advisors in a really good position to ask lots of questions, but also allow the clients to take time to think about it. Because just expecting that in an hour, they’re going to be able to draw out, what’s the key guy? What’s the vision follow? Hi, friend. That’s a lot to expect someone to have the answers for, if they haven’t done the work totally. So it’s actually giving people the opportunity to maybe break it up over a longer period to think about those questions. And whether it’s a leave behind, or it’s giving some homework for the client to think about providing forums for discussion. That’s probably a good place. Because I think it’s not always just closed conversations. I know that a lot of it’s your confidential, but the things that people learn in my workshops and discussion groups, are incredibly valuable. And the reason why I like doing group work is because people learn and observe and getting things out in a group normalizes the fears. Yeah. And that people realize that they’re not the only ones experiencing the same issues everyone’s going through it. And more often than not, people help each other out. Yeah, problem solving, yeah. And it becomes a collective. So it doesn’t have to be just a one on one thing, it can actually let’s bring the community that lets bring a group of clients together, to think through the questions and talk about it openly together. And clients will really appreciate those opportunities to have those open conversations with other people experiencing the same sorts of challenges in that state of life.

Jess Brady
I think that that’s such an interesting and yet obvious point to start at, like get people together who are at a similar stage who are thinking the same things, and just hold space to have these conversations, but also do the work. Yeah. Like if you haven’t done the work for yourself. And if you are staring down this phase of your life, and you haven’t done the work, it’s probably going to become very obvious, but also very inauthentic to then have clients come in and try to help them work through it. Because we are kings and queens of often telling what to do and not doing. So I think there’s some good action items for me as well on the ikigai. Front. But I think that that’s hugely valuable, I think about my parents always rely like to relate this stuff to real stories that my parents have had a financial advisor for decades, my mom’s just recently transitioned to retirement. So raising reading your book was really interesting, through her thinking about her and how much she can offer the world, and how wasted some talents are when they retire. And they realize that there’s so much more that they can do. But I just thinking when you were talking, I’m like, gosh, if the advisor for my parents had had, or can have these sort of sessions or opportunities to learn, I really think my parents would I go be find it beneficial. And see, it would be a stickier relationship. I’m not sure that you would do it for that. But I think it would be I think

Natalie Yan-Chatonsky
so definitely. Because if you’ve helped people prepare for the second half of life in a way that’s really meaningful, and satisfying, then there’s so much value in that huge.

Jess Brady
And we actually know that a lot of women leave a financial advisor if their male partner dies, which tells me that there’s a connection, value problem with a lot, not everyone, but a lot of people do that. And so this can be a really great way to connect with someone that perhaps isn’t the lead from the financial decision. Meeting perspective as well. Interesting. Now, I’m gonna ask you a couple of rapid fire questions. But before we do, thank you so much for today. And how can people learn more about you, your work and your book?

Natalie Yan-Chatonsky
Probably best to come to our website full time labs.com. I do have a white paper for financial advisors, five tips to manage your 100 year life. So we can put in the shownotes.

Jess Brady
Yes, let’s put it in the show notes. That would be fantastic. Yeah, link to that and we’ll have a link to your website. Okay, as well. Are you ready for some rapid fire question lately? Okay. First question is not what’s one thing that you do look to look after your mental health.

Natalie Yan-Chatonsky
I do a combination of different things. Brazilian jujitsu five times a week, five times

Jess Brady
a week. Yes. Do you really do jujitsu, five. Do not mess with five times a week. Wow, that’s amazing. That is amazing.

Natalie Yan-Chatonsky
I also do yoga, about twice a week. And I have an acupuncture session about once a fortnight I meditate and I journal. So it’s a combination of a few different things, and having a really tight weekly structure so that I prioritize all those ways of looking after my health and

Jess Brady
well being, you have a morning routine, don’t you?

Natalie Yan-Chatonsky
Look, I do have a morning routine. Like it’s where I decide to journal that can vary, but essentially, the activities I do in the morning, you know, more or less the same every day, even on weekends.

Jess Brady
What are the piece of advice that you’d give to younger Natalie?

Natalie Yan-Chatonsky
I would say, don’t worry too much about what people think. I think her worried too much when I was younger. And now that I’m in my live midlife and everything I know now and the last few years, I’ve learned so much more from older people. I’ve realized if you can just let go of all hang ups and judgment and worrying about other people think you can just get on with what’s really important to you.

Jess Brady
I heard this saying a little while ago and it changed me. It said what other people think of you is none of your business. Like, oh my gosh, it is none of my business. If I don’t like me, I don’t care. It’s none of my business. It was quite profound for me, is this something that’s on your bucket list, a big item that you haven’t ticked off yet.

Natalie Yan-Chatonsky
So I’ve been to two of the five blue zones. I’m still working through the rest, obviously, the pandemic has stopped me. So I want to get back on to my bucket list of visiting the three remaining blue zones.

Jess Brady
And last question for you is do you have a book to recommend for me to read as part of my fake book.

Natalie Yan-Chatonsky
I think you should definitely read the 100 year life by Linda Greta and Andrew Scott. It touches on what we need to be thinking about from an individual and future point of view. Now that we’re living longer,

Jess Brady
amazing. I haven’t read that. So I shall add that to the list. Natalie today has been such a great conversation. Thank you so much for imparting your knowledge to the expat community.

Natalie Yan-Chatonsky
Thank you so much for having me and I look forward to hearing from advisors come into our website and have any queries. Thank you