#339 Deepa Surti Part #1 – Transcript

Jess Brady
Hi, Deepa.

Deepa Surti
Hey, Jess. How are you? Going?

Jess Brady
Good, good, good, good. Now, I am excited because I said to you a little while ago, not only do I want to do this podcast, please, can you be on this podcast? But can we do Turlough? Sure. So this is part one of our two part chat. We’re going to talk all things recruiting, but really specifically, today, we’re going to talk about this from the lens of people who are looking to hire, and we’re going to go really deep, and get your expert opinion on all things hiring in advice. So I think the natural place to start deeper is perhaps help us understand what does the financial planning landscape look like right now?

Deepa Surti
Okay, from a, I think, from a employer’s point of view, or just generally speaking candidates, clients from both perspectives. We’ve seen a lot of there’s a lot of demand for candidates with good skills. And if you’re a financial advisor, paraplanner, CSO, it actually really doesn’t matter across those different levels. Candidates are typically in demand at the moment. You know, over the three decades that I’ve been in this industry, I’ve actually, I actually think that the industry has always been a tough one in this space. Particularly if you’re good at what you do. If you’re good at what you do, you’re going to have options. And it’s, it’s just important for the advisors, or the hiring managers to recognize that and understand that it is a tight market, it is a candidate market. And I actually think it’s just going to get tougher, you know, the more advisors are leaving the industry, people are becoming more educated, they want financial advice. And so those advisors that stand out themselves, and particularly have a good attraction, to be able to Oh, not a good attraction, but a good story to be able to sell to candidates about where they’re going with their business, I think that’s going to set them apart, going down this journey of hiring,

Jess Brady
you definitely hear from anyone that’s hired recently that it is a really difficult market. And so I think, you know, you see it every single day. So it’s nice to know that we’re not alone in that thought, although it is a frustration, and I want to deep dive a little bit more specifically into some of the things that you’ve talked about. But maybe before we get there, I’m keen to think through from your ends, like what is the sort of best practice when it comes to hiring and perhaps before we get into that piece? What are the pros and cons? I know, this might be a weird question, because you’re a recruiter. But can we talk about the pros and cons of actually using a recruiter?

Deepa Surti
Yeah, absolutely. And, and it’s interesting, I actually like my clients to try and do their own recruitment, and have a go at it. And I guess the reason why is, they could probably then understand why I carry Nurofen in my handbag every day. It is it’s not simple. There’s, there’s so many things that can go wrong, there’s, you know, at the end of the day, there’s a lot that can go wrong. And but I would say that by following a structured process, you try and eliminate that. And obviously when you’re hiring it is risky, it you know, you can, you can think you’ve got the right person, and then all of a sudden, that person, they just change on you, or they exhibit behaviors that you just didn’t know or you can’t predict. At the end of the day, we’re talking about people. So I think the pros and cons are i would i would give it a go yourself, if you’ve got the time. Or if you haven’t done it, just give it a go. So you can understand some of the pains and some of the pain points if you like and then you might be able to respect the process and understand the frustrations that recruiters actually go through it. But the biggest advantage, I guess, of using a recruiter is that they’ve done this quite a lot. They speak to candidates every day they are in the market, they’re listening, they know what types of questions to ask candidates. And if you’re an employer that has to hire, sometimes you find it difficult to ask questions that a recruiter can and this is why having a third party doing fit for you can be quite beneficial. People are uncomfortable about asking, you know, salary salary, for instance, or, you know, things like a recruiter will be able to identify gaps in resumes and really deep down and go into it and understand, you know, if there’s a gap in your resume, so talk me through what’s happened over the last, you know, six months, 12 months, two years, whatever the gap might be, but these are questions that only a trained recruiter can really ask and And also, as a hiring manager, you just might find it a bit uncomfortable to ask those questions. So that’s definitely a good reason why you should use a recruiter. Another reason why you’d want to use a recruiter is it’s very, very time consuming process. It’s time consuming. And also, you know, you’ve got your day job to do. And then can you imagine, you’ve just got to sit there and you’ve got a recruit as well, a recruitment process can take weeks. And then let’s just say you’ve got a great candidate, and you don’t get back to them for two days, you’ve lost the candidate, particularly in this market. And candidates are actually interviewing you as much as you are interviewing them at the moment.

Jess Brady
Yeah, and we’re going to talk about that in a little bit more detail. I think the time drain is a huge one that I actually underestimated initially, and it took hours and hours and hours out of my day. And you’re right, it did create a really healthy respect for what recruiters do and just how much work was involved, is involved to get, get a good candidate in front of someone? Can we talk a little bit about lead times that you’re seeing for different roles? Like, what’s the average turnaround time, would you say from say, putting a job description up to having someone start in a business?

Deepa Surti
It comes down to, I think it comes down to firstly, if you work backwards from notice period, typically candidates have about two to four weeks of a notice period, depending on their their level of like, if they’re a junior person, you know, sometimes it’s just one or two weeks. If it’s an advisor, you know, it could be that they typically will have for four weeks notice. But also they could get walked if they’re also going to a competitor or another advice, practice. But I guess to answer your question, a good recruitment campaign from beginning to end, you need to allow least, I would say about four to six weeks to do the process properly. And then you have to add on notice period. So it could be anywhere between six to 12 weeks, really.

Jess Brady
And you’re noticing I’ve only seen this a few times. But when I’ve talked about it, people have said oh yeah, this is becoming more common for advisors, having a three months. Yeah, a three month notice period.

Deepa Surti
In adviser world, I haven’t sort of seen that a lot. I mean, I typically see it for four weeks. But I guess because it is a tight market. And because now advisors or employers are investing in, in taking on their new talent that perhaps they’re just adding it to their contracts and their clauses now. Just just to try and keep those advisors a bit longer in their practice.

Jess Brady
It does make sense when you think about the handover process that obviously because then you need to recruit, and then hand over your the clients of the person leaving, it obviously just puts a bit of a difficult spin on things. If you’ve been through that process, you found the right person, and then you have to wait three months and a little bit because people obviously want to take a break as well. Normally, it definitely caught me off guard. Had I probably given that a bit more thought I would have started earlier. Yes, yes. Do you find that people do that, that people and by the time they get to you, and they’ve decided that they really want to hire? They’re in quite a panic and a rush to get some? Absolutely,

Deepa Surti
yeah, that’s like 99% of the clients that I deal with. Because you’ve suddenly have a resignation, or where you’ve just done a marketing campaign. And you’ve just got all these leads, and you just don’t know, you just don’t have the time to service it. So all of a sudden your panic attack and you need to hire so yeah, you’d want to plan that carefully and try and get a longer lead time.

Jess Brady
Yeah, and and imagine that, that doesn’t make fruit great campaign, when you’re trying to find the best candidates and you’ve got someone pushing you to do it as fast as possible that those two things seem not incompatible, but but really difficult to manage? Is that how it feels?

Deepa Surti
Yeah, absolutely. And, you know, it just particularly depends on like, if you’ve if you’re working with a recruiter exclusively as well. Or if you’ve gone out to multiple recruiters going out to multiple recruiters just causes urgency it causes, I find that if you go to too many recruiters too quickly, you’re also can lack the quality and the quality of the process is so so important for an employer to make sure that they make the right hire. So just just always think with quality and try to find the you know, I need the best person for my for my business. And if it means waiting a bit longer, you should wait. Don’t just rush into a hire.

Jess Brady
This might be a really silly question. Why do people go to multiple recruiters? Is it because they just want to see, do you have anyone that you know is looking immediately is that typically why this happened?

Deepa Surti
Yeah, absolutely. And what happens is is depending on which recruiter they’ve got, they could have candidates on I’m on their books at the moment. But you know, again, typically, if if in this market, if you’re a candidate, you’re actively looking, and you’ve got the right skills, you probably will get snapped up pretty quickly. So the reason why an employer will probably go to multiple recruiters is they just, they’ve got a job, they’ve got an urgency, and they need to fill it. And so you’re banking on different recruiters being able to have candidates that are ready to go. So it’s, it’s not ideal, because then you create competition amongst recruiters as well. I’ve got to admit, if I, if I had a if I had a manager’s come coming to me, and then they were using three other recruiters, what’s my incentive to really sit there and help you find your right person? When I know that I’ve got two or three other clients that investing in me to really work closely with them and find them someone right for their business? So it’s a real good, it’s a partnership, you got to think of it as a partnership?

Jess Brady
And what are some of the things that you should consider when you’re looking to take on or looking to use a recruiter?

Deepa Surti
Okay, I think the first thing you need to do is obviously, let’s just say you’ve got a bit of a shortlist of recruiters that you are looking to, to chat with, I think what you should be doing is, let’s first of all, give them a bit of a brief of as to what you’re looking for, you don’t have to go into anything very detailed. But what I would suggest is, see what questions they ask you. Okay, because then you’re gonna get an idea. Do they understand the industry? Are they do they? Are they asking the right questions of you? Are they asking the right questions, if you for what sort of what you’re looking for, what your company is about what your role is about. And that will just give you an indication as to you know, how experienced they are. The other because and the other thing is, I think that the main reason you want to sorry, was that loud when he shut the door. It’s alright. Okay. So I think the other thing is, the reason why you want to make sure you’ve got a recruiter that understands your businesses, you need them to be able to sell your role and your company and your culture, everything about you. So it’s just important that you know that they know how to sell you and portray you in the market. So just following on from that, I think it’s also there’s also a little bit of a connection, I think, if you’ve got a bit of a connection with them, and if you like their style. For me, I’m a very consultative style. And I like that partnership approach. So I think that’s really important when when you’re looking for somebody, just watch out for the salespeople.

Jess Brady
I think that that’s a really good point and like, so that the recruiter can really get a feel for what you’re looking for, like, what did the best businesses do? Do they have like a briefing document? Like how do businesses brief you?

Deepa Surti
The first thing you need to know or that what you need to do as an employer is you must know what you want. And so obviously, you have to have a job description 99% of recruiters will not go down a recruitment path unless they have a job description. You shouldn’t you shouldn’t you shouldn’t you have to have a starting point. And when an employer puts a job description together, for instance, their style, their logo, everything about them should be captured on that job description as well. Because at the end of the day, you want to your job description is actually your first selling point A to the recruiter that you’re briefing and also to the candidate. So invest the time to get your job description, right. And that’s, that is just super important. Before you even start briefing your recruiter, it’s the first thing we look for, it’s the first thing we need to know about about you, your company and exactly what the tasks are. Because every business is different, and every role is different.

Jess Brady
And what are your tips and tricks around getting a great job description?

Deepa Surti
I think what you mean putting it together or just the actual, what do you mean by that?

Jess Brady
Well, I think if, if, if the job description is like the first selling point, yes. And obviously you’ve decided you want to hire so you really want to put your best foot forward because it is a tight market. Are there some job descriptions that you look at? And you’re like, oh my gosh, this is beautiful, or oh my gosh, this is horrendous and we’re not going to be able to find the quality of candidate that they’re looking for. And if so what delineates the two,

Deepa Surti
okay, so I think when you’re putting a job description together or creating one, you remember it, this is a sales document. Remember it as it’s the first thing a recruiter is going to see it’s the first thing that you want your candidates to, to see. So I would say reflect your brand, reflect who you are like you’ve got values, put it in there, what’s your business objectives, put it in there. And then when you’re actually coming down to the job specification be specific. I love seeing weightings. Personally, I like seeing weightings and percentages on job descriptions assigned to a particular task. Because then the candidate goes, Okay, so 60% of my role is this. And then there’s, you know, 2% of my role is to answer phone calls, or, you know, whatever the case might be, but it just gives the candidate a good idea of, you know, what, what the expectations are. And it’s in writing, and it’s upfront so that when they’re on the job, they, you know, like, I often hear candidates or employers saying, Well, that wasn’t in the job description, right. So if you can try and write your job description to be quite specific as well, that you just want to be as specific as you can. And allocating weights and percentages to the tasks is, is really good. Obviously, things come up along the way. And sometimes you just need, you know, stuff done. That’s not necessarily in the job description. So that’s why employers can put like a little thing in there saying other jobs, tasks as required. That kind of helps helps you along the way.

Jess Brady
It’s interesting, I think, probably, firstly, this makes a lot of sense. And I can understand why it would work, not only for you, who would have to explain more about the role, but also for someone trying to understand well, what am I walking into? If it’s an existing railway, someone’s being replaced? I think, obviously, that’s quite easy, I guess where it’s complicated is if you’re building a new role in a business, and you don’t have a huge handle on exactly the weightings of everything. Are there any other tips that you would give to us when building a good job description,

Deepa Surti
I think, you know, then start then start generic. But try and be obviously try and sort of knock out like 70 or 80% of your job as much as you can. And sometimes you build your job descriptions around the candidate that you’re kind of seeing as well. So depending on, like, if you can give a recruiter or if you’re, if you’re doing a job brief yourself, and you put a job description together, and there’s about 20%, you think, Oh, I’m not really sure what else I need. It’s okay to build that in later on. And as you go through the recruitment process, you just might find a candidate that’s got these skills that you could kind of go well, you know, what, I might be able to use those skills and add it to the job description. So it doesn’t have to be final until you’ve got a candidate across the line, or you’re just about to make that offer and go down this onboarding path. So you can kind of hold back a little bit as well. And I understand if it’s a new role, sometimes you just don’t have all the answers or you just don’t know everything up front. So don’t look just Just do as best as you can try and get it as accurate as you can. And then you can always add to it and build to it later. And I mean, I’ve just gone through the process with a couple of employees where they’ve needed to do a job description and put something together as well. And yeah, we had to add stuff to the job description later on, because certain candidates bring certain things to the table. And they decided to restructure part of their business and add some allocate, allocate some tasks to that candidate as well. And then it just broaden the role a bit more to and made it more challenging for the candidate. Because sometimes, you know, you could also even identify a candidate that’s got these extra skills. So let’s add it to the job description. Give them more responsibility. And, you know, it might actually take some load off other people in the business as well. And yeah,

Jess Brady
how can you make sure in the hiring process, you are really clearly articulating your culture,

Deepa Surti
I think, just be genuine and be who you are, and be yourself. I think transparency is very, very important. I think the people trying to oversell a role or oversell themselves, or oversell their company, to somebody, and then that’s not really who you are, then you’ve you’re gonna go down a failed recruitment process. Because you’re just going to be attracting the wrong person, because it’s not your culture. And it’s not who you are. So I think just be yourself and, and really talk about your values actually talk about your values through the recruitment process as well, because it’s who you are, you know, and you need to be able to put that part of your process. And at the end of the day, you’ve got to be able to, you want the person that’s going to come and work for you to be compatible to your culture as well and who you are. Do you think

Jess Brady
it’s easy to give candidates an insight into the culture in the recruitment process?

Deepa Surti
I think so. I mean, I’ve dealt with so many different practices, and I guess that and this is why obviously if you do use a recruiter or whatever you choose to do for that, it’s really important to explain to the recruiter Well, this is what we’re about, you know, if you’re one of those, you know, one of those practices that likes to get involved in marathons, or if you donate to charities, or whatever the case might be, make sure you talk about that, because it’s a reflection of you as a business and, you know, just you as human beings, and that’s where your heart is, as well. And people resonate with that as well. Because at the end of the day, yes, they’re looking for a job. But it’s, you know, you just might, you just might see a candidate that’s got those, those attributes that are also really important to them. And you could just get another amazing person that just adds to your culture and just further develops it. So talk about your culture during the process. I find that particularly in this market, as well, I think the first part of the recruitment process should be about culture, and should be about what you’re doing in your business, and what’s important to you.

Jess Brady
I think, you know, coming back to that piece around authenticity, what I was thinking when you were saying that was a wonder, like in a small business, where it’s you and you are the company culture, you know, being authentic is really great. And that’s really easy to articulate, this is who we are. But I wonder like in a bigger business, where there’s many partners, or lots of advisors, or lots of people in there, it probably does become a bit harder to convey culture,

Deepa Surti
yeah, it comes down to divisional, then, obviously, as a leader in a large organization, you’re there to sort of, I guess, haven’t share the overall vision of the company. But different managers have got different management’s management styles. And at the end of the day, they’ve got to be successful in their team. So if, if, if you’re a good fit for them and their business and their team, I think it’s got to come down to a team team setting and see what if you’re going to be working for a particular manager do get on with your manager, can you feel that chemistry? And can you feel that synergy? And I think people are really responsive and receptive to that feeling as well. Particularly, if you’ve been around for a long time, you just get a good feel of people in the end. Ah,

Jess Brady
interestingly, you like personality profiling, and I’m keen to know why. And what do you see come out of them that you think helps make sure that you are selecting the right candidate?

Deepa Surti
I think personality profiling, it basically validates parts of your recruitment process. But I don’t think it should be the thing that is the deciding factor, I think you should use it as part of the process. You know, it’s, it’s a bit problematic when you like, you know, in this market and protect, perhaps you’ve only got one candidate at the end. And what happens if they don’t meet your profile that you know, is in your world, the perfect person, then is in a business, you have to look at it, and you go, Okay, so there’s a few things that are off on this profile. But can I use those parts that are not quite right? And is this a person that I can train for the parts that they’ve just, I don’t know, maybe not have scored what you wanted them to score? You know, particularly like, let’s just say it’s a, a business analyst role, or something like that, or a role that requires a lot of analytical skills. Yes, I’m a strong believer in things profiling, because I think that you can’t have somebody being in an analyst role or hire like an actuarial all, for instance, and they score poorly on the mathematics. It’s, it’s going to be a reflection on the job, unfortunately. But I think overall, as a hiring manager, they’re good to use in conjunction with everything else, and do towards probably about it, like between the second and the third, last, like either between the first and the second interview, or the second and the third interview, because you also don’t want to scare off candidates, either. Some, some organizations just will not do it. And you know, they might have had a number of rounds of interviews, and you don’t want to scare off your candidate so that if you put them through a profiling then but you know, like, they’re also looking at three other companies and they’re not doing any profiling, then you just got to think about and you go, Oh God, do I really want to do this or is their experience and references enough for me as an employee to take to take this person on? So I think also do it on a case by case basis as well. Otherwise, you just might fall short and not get a candidate at the end at all,

Jess Brady
because people are terrified of having a personality profile.

Deepa Surti
Yeah, yeah. Particularly the long ones like I know some organizations in particular one in particular, I can think Call that three hours, it’s quite daunting. And you know what, you know, when people do the personality profile? Are they answering the question? Because it’s really them? Or is it? Are they answering the question? Because it’s, I think this is what they want me to say. So there’s a little bit of that abnormality in that process as well. So I would just say I liked I do like using them, but I would also be using it as part of the overall process.

Jess Brady
Okay. And then let’s talk about that process in more detail. So I’m keen to learn a bit more from your perspective on specifically the interviewing process, how many interviews often people having, who were they having them with? And what do you find works quite well,

Deepa Surti
okay. If if it’s a, if it’s directly, if you’re say you’re doing your own hiring, it’s typically going to be that should be the person that’s on the phone, calling them. So if you’re a manager, they’ve responded to you, and, and you’re the person that it’s going to be, you know, you’re the person that’s taking them through the process, I think it should be that person, because you’re the person that needs to get them in the door as well. So that phone call, he’s really, really important as well, because you actually have to sell to them, and get them in the door to come and meet with you. So I would say and again, it depends on the role, let’s just say for junior candidates, some in this and again in this market. And I’ve got to admit it’s been through all my years of recruitment Junior candidates, you may not have the leisure of having to interviews. Because believe it or not Junior candidates, such as a, like just a little office, Junior, everyone wants a great office Junior, they’re actually one of the hardest candidates to find. And you sometimes you just have to pounce, and unfortunately, you just got to be really, really quick about not unfortunately, but we do new candidates, you got to move fast. So let’s just say Jess, you’re that person that’s invited the candidate in, you’ve got that hour to impress them as much as they’ve got to impress you. And then if you feel like, oh, this person is really good. And John Smith, who’s in your office is also there, you might just want to grab them in at that point as well. Because you might lose them, because at that level, they everyone’s everyone wants a good office Junior. And so they’re going to typically at that level, go with the first good offer that they see. Conversely, if you’ve got say, A, let’s just say it’s a general manager, or a quite a senior senior role. It could take a while I just I just did a role for a company, it took us nearly six months.

Jess Brady
And how many interviews would that person takes six?

Deepa Surti
Yeah. That that includes me. It’s just it was a very, very important role for this business, they had to get it right. And conversely, the candidates needed to make sure it was the right decision for them. When you’re when you’re obviously a senior manager, and you’re very good at what you do, you’re looking at other businesses. So you’ve got to make the right decision. And this is going back to what we’re talking about with culture and everything as well. It’s really important to get that upfront. That message across and everyone that you get involved in the interview process, make sure they’re saying the same story. Obviously, they’re going to have different perspectives and different ideas, but you want to have the same story. So you’ve got to make sure your whole interview process everybody’s in line with that they agree on the on the same themes and that you’ve all thinking the same things as well.

Jess Brady
I’m just sitting here giggling because I’m like, Okay, this is a little bit Goldilocks, like, it feels like one interview is totally not enough. And six is so many, like, surely there’s something nice in between. But I think when you’re looking for staff that are perhaps administrative or you know, earlier on in their career, they’re probably just wanting a new job. And so if they do get a good offer, and it meets all of the criteria that they really look for, they go really quickly.

Deepa Surti
Absolutely. And sometimes you that’s what I’m saying sometimes you don’t have the leisure of multiple interviews. And sometimes you know what, at the end of the day, if they’ve got the skills on paper, their resume looks great. You’ve gone through the technical assessment, you’ve gone through the skills assessment, and they tick a lot of your boxes and you just know, you got to run with it.

Jess Brady
It’s scary, but that makes sense.

Deepa Surti
Yeah, yeah. I literally had just went through a junior high with another one of my clients, and they made a decision in 24 hours.

Jess Brady
Wow. And I guess if you have really done all of the processes that we’ve talked about up to this point, so you’ve really articulated well what the role is, you’ve briefed the recruiter, if Use one, you’ve been able to convey company culture like you’ve, you’ve actually done a lot of the work well, before that, it just feels like meeting someone for the first time and then saying, Come on in. I am actually genuine dating game, isn’t it?

We haven’t even done it yet. Hmm. Food for thought, given the market is quite tight, what can you What are you seeing businesses do to really make sure candidates see them as an employer of choice?

Deepa Surti
Okay. I think my first point on that would be your brand is really, really important. And I think that, let’s just say you’re an employer that’s constantly on social media, and delivering, you know, webinars, seminars, whatever you’re doing, and you’re actively involved in charities, or whatever you’re doing, just keep on advertising that and keep on highlighting that that is your brand. And that’s what’s going to, that’s part of your sell, because at the end of the day, you have to sell yourself. But you know, also in a post COVID world, things have changed a lot and, and people got used to working from home, but at the same time, they’re also itching to get back into the office as well. So just it does depend on people’s circumstances as well. But I think that be flexible. Listen to what your candidates are saying. And you know, if you’ve got a great candidate that has to, you know, might have two kids, and they need to be at school at nine o’clock, and they can’t get into the office till 930, quarter to 10. But they’re willing to stay back. Well, if you’ve got a great candidate, and you can be a bit flexible around their personal lives then. Absolutely. Because there’s there are so many employers that I’ve dealt with in the past as well. They’re so Richard, you have to be here at this time. You’ve got your lunch break at one o’clock, lunches from one to two. Oh, yeah, it happens. And that’s just somebody that just creates an environment of fear. And why would you want to go work for someone like that, when I can work with another firm that’s in the same industry, but respects me and trust me, and I think it comes down to trust as well. You do have to trust and, you know, trust, trust your employees at the end of the day, because they if you’re trusting them, they’re going to deliver for you. Because you support them. Yeah, but it again, and it also comes down to if it’s a junior candidate or a senior candidate look into, you know, the, you know, what, what their, you know, circumstances are you can’t go too far into it from a personal point of view, but just be adaptable and have have that point across very early on that, you know, we’re adaptable to people’s individual circumstances, and we’re happy to help you.

Jess Brady
And flexibility does seem like, you know, more than ever, a necessity. Yeah, it’s not like a nice to have any more. You know, we’re in a world where people are wanting hybrid working environments, people are wanting to be able to spend more time with their family and take, you know, certain afternoons off and then make back the time and it just seems like you’re going to, you know, already a difficult market, you’re going to push away really good talent because they won’t want to work. I am still hung up. No, no, I’m gonna say I’m hung up about the idea that people are prescriptive in the hiring process around people’s lunchtimes.

Deepa Surti
Oh, yeah, yeah, that’s, that’s, that’s another topic of conversation. But like, I have seen it in employers. And it? Yeah, let’s not. It does happen. It does happen.

Jess Brady
It’s a good expression of culture. It really articulates who you are, as a business, I’m not sure it would put your best foot forward. But it’s, you know, I’d actually prefer to know what, you know, if someone was going to try to make me take lunch at a set time, I’d actually prefer in the hiring process, because I wouldn’t want to work for a company that does that. So maybe, that they do, and maybe some people thrive on that. But I think that that’s I mean, look,

Deepa Surti
it’s also very true of junior candidates, because typically, Junior candidates know that their hours are 830 to five, and they know they get an hour lunch. And they know that they can have a morning tea and an afternoon tea. It’s just kind of what’s been built in them. But if you’re an employee just says, look, at the end of the day, here are your tasks. If you get your job done. We we don’t mind how you use your time. But they obviously have to be more closely managed than say somebody that’s got 10 years experience and know what they’re doing. It’s just a different it’s just a different game. The junior candidates do need a bit more, I guess, closer management and perhaps mentoring and training. Some of them may not have even been in the workforce before so they they don’t know what protocol is. And this is why if you’ve got a great culture that For us and and has this accountability and really trust their employees that you just you just got a great culture already and, and you’re already 1010 steps ahead of your competitors.

Jess Brady
I called someone from my team yesterday morning, and she called me about an hour later. She said, I’m sorry, I had to go into Pilates. I was like, God, thank you for getting Pilates class in nice and early. I’m having coffee. And she’s like, great, and it will make me really happy. Because, you know, we are trying to make sure that our team know like, yeah, there’s a lot of work to do. But get up and move and go and do your Pilates and it doesn’t have to be at lunchtime. If that’s not what you want to do, or the class isn’t right, or your PT can’t do then like, I don’t care. I don’t care, as long as you move your body. And that makes you more productive and happier and healthier. And you can get your work done. Yeah, fine. Yeah.

Deepa Surti
Yeah, absolutely

Jess Brady
deeper. What do you do when you when you interview and have we, I’ve seen this, someone interviews really well, they seem so great. And then they come in, and they are not who they were in the interviewing process.

Deepa Surti
This is why you have probation periods. It’s unfortunate, we are talking about human beings. And you can always get it right. And somebody could be exceptional at interview, let’s just say there is that person. They’re selling themselves. They’re really good. But they come to your environment or they’ve been they’ve been a they’ve been blitzing it in their last environment. Their culture was right. For them. It was a different type of management, they come into in your environment. Maybe the culture just wasn’t that right. After all, it’s if I had a glass ball, and if I had, if I if I could see deep into the future about what that would look like, jeez, I think everyone would be really happy workplaces, but you just cannot. How do you predict that it’s, you obviously want to do everything you can upfront to try and get the right person from the beginning. But there’s always going to be those odd times where you just don’t get it. Right.

Jess Brady
And it’s tricky, right? Because they’re trying to put their best foot forward because they wanted to throw

Deepa Surti
and so are you and absolutely so you and and, but you know, just something might trigger them in the workplace or something might trigger you in the workplace. And then you go, Oh, cheese, I just didn’t see that. I just didn’t pick up on that in the recruitment process. And you can miss it. So just don’t, don’t shoot yourself. Don’t don’t, it just happens. It’s it’s people, you know, so and some people are going to be good in one environment, but they may not be good in another environment. So just that’s just just put it down to an era and you unfortunately, just have to move

Jess Brady
on. Last question on helping people find good candidates or bring them in. Once they’re in the business. I don’t know whether you’ve seen much of this actually. So tell me if you don’t, but once the in the business, how are you seeing people make sure that I guess they’re not candidates, the new employers by now? How are they properly on boarded to ensure that they do feel like okay, I’ve, I’ve made the right fit. And I feel really comfortable in this new role.

Deepa Surti
Yeah, I think I think first of all, have someone there at the door and greet them. And you know, what? Would you like a coffee? Before we go on a tour? Just you know what, they’re humans at the end of the day, offer him a coffee. Let me take you for a tour. Let me show you, your team. Let me show you your desk, make sure their desk is set up. Oh my god, the number of times I’ve seen candidates go start a job. They don’t even know where they’re sitting. They don’t even have a computer. They don’t have a password. So they spent two days trying to get that right. But that’s actually the employers job that they need to have all this sorted. If it’s an employee, you don’t have that, right. Please don’t stop them. Wait till it’s all set up. So that their experience is a good experience. Because if it looks like shambles, or when they start, is that a reflection of who you are? And am I going to last in this environment? One of my clients, you know, just we hired last November, they started in February, she had a beautiful bunch of flowers in her office. I’m not saying give bunch of flowers to everybody, but it was just a reflection of we’re so excited to have you here. And here’s a bunch of flowers to lighten up your desk.

Jess Brady
Hmm. It is those little things that it’s little things you would totally want. Like how nice would that be even a coffee I’d be happy but you know, I I work in a world where they’re in a bigger office and actually one of the things that we clocked once we brought someone in was it’s a really confusing floorplan and people were like new hires. We’re getting lost in our office because we work in a co working space. Yep. Not knowing where the exit was because they were in the wrong corner or whatever the bathrooms were. And so we were like, oh, gosh, we actually need to make, because we obviously tape them around. And like hee hee hee. But like, actually, no, you need to take them around a few times and be like, Okay, remember, this is the exit from this road. And this is where you go for here. Because they were, they were like dazed and confused, walking.

Deepa Surti
So you might need to give them a GPS tracking system or something.

Jess Brady
You find your way back.

Deepa Surti
Now I just put just put arrows on the floor. This is a toilet.

Jess Brady
But you know, we’ve totally take all of that stuff for granted. Yet, imagine the field when someone’s new and they’re trying to look competent. And something as small as that can throw you titled, you

Deepa Surti
know what, like, just suddenly, in your business and your culture? Like you guys wear T shirts, right? So what a great gesture. If you’re all wearing your T shirt, and then all of a sudden they walk in and they’re wearing a shirt. Here’s your T shirt, huh? Welcome to the team. Yeah, yeah, straightaway, they fit in, you know,

Jess Brady
and then we do a pub lunch, we have a traditional

Deepa Surti
lunch, so then maybe skip the coffee, then maybe skip the coffee.

Jess Brady
We have lemonade, but we have a local pub that we take everyone to as part of the welcome process. But um, you can see like having done this to varying degrees of success, I think every time you hire you really, and you’ve been through the end to end process, I find that I look back and actually we talk about it as a team. We’re like, Okay, we could have done this part so much better, or we should have done X Y, Zed. And it’s, it is one of those things where you aren’t dealing with people and you’re gonna make mistakes. And you do sort of build out a bit of a toolkit of okay, if we’re going to do this again, how do we get it better for the next hire. But often the lessons are quite expensive lessons, and they’re painful. Any other tips or tricks for people that are hiring,

Deepa Surti
I think, just just be genuine in your approach, just be transparent. Don’t hire for the sake of hiring. You know, like, I know, you might have a need and you’re desperate to fill a job, maybe have a plan B before you go in and understand that it is a tight market. We’re talking about individuals, but candidates are, again, depending on the industry, they are interviewing you as much as you’re interviewing them. So just it just might take you a bit longer to find the right person. And maybe you just need to have a plan B as well. And actually, one other thing I would say is that yes, have a plan B as well, but also look for people that may not have all the skills that you want. They might be from a different industry, but they’ve got transferrable skills. I find my basic biggest success stories come from those candidates that have didn’t have the skills that the employer wanted in the first place. But they got they had the passion and they had the attitude and they had the energy because they badly wanted it. And for me, that’s more important sometimes than just the four skill sets that you’re looking for in the first place.

Jess Brady
Thank you so much for helping to demystify the hiring process and help people you know, really, hopefully not make those expensive mistakes and really understand from a recruiter side of things, how do you put your best foot forward when you’re looking to hire? Thanks, Deepa,

Deepa Surti
No problem. Nice chatting.