#331 Kevin Liao – Transcript

Clayton Daniel
G’Day. Two weeks in a row I am filling in for my friend Jess, who happens to be on the other side of the world enjoying yourself just going through? Or would you call it too much fun, I think is probably the correct answer. So I’m filling in for her for the second week in a row. But Kev may it is great to have you on to chat all things advice, tech, so thank you for coming on.

Kevin Liao
Okay, everyone.

Clayton Daniel
Yeah, it’s this is this is a conversation that we’d been, you know, loosely planning for a couple of months and, and when it just so happens that I had a, you know, a spot to fill. You were the first person I kind of thought of this week. So one of the one of the interesting things that I’ve found about chatting with you over time, Kev is you’re a tech guy, right? Who got dragged into financial planning. How does that even happen? Like, how did you start? Well, I’m sure at university you were wherever you study, you weren’t thinking, Oh, I can’t wait to start building SOS. How on earth did you end up in financial planning?

Kevin Liao
Okay, well, it started off with me trying to finish off my double degree with a master’s in uni. Right? And who could have guessed? I was studying masters of biomedical engineering? Yeah, which is totally what I’m doing at the moment. But through the requirements of needing to get some industry experience. I was looking around and had a friend of mine who said, hey, my businesses, my company is looking for a tester. Are you interested? And I thought, cool. I went for it. Expected? No, no. Okay. As a intern, or work experience? Yeah. Well, it turned out it was pretty much career for life. So pretty much they they also may. At that time, I feel it was a very good role for myself to start in the business as a Test Analyst. And it was at a coin software. Right. So pretty much I think McCory would have just done the transaction was coined in one of the very first staff that they have recruited up. And yeah, since I’ve been stuck in the industry, for the group.

Clayton Daniel
Well, it’s kind of interesting, right? Because, you know, when I first started my financial planning business in 2013, I was with Hill Ross. And Horus is owned by a&p. And there, I think it’s finished now. But there was a huge decade’s long, you know, partnership between coin and ANP. And so when I first started, in my own practice, I was using coin and this was, you know, 2013 1415 doesn’t I think, I think by about 2016, I’d moved across to midwinter, but certainly the first few years, I was, I was using coin. And but I assume by 2016, you were well and truly had moved on from coin, right.

Kevin Liao
Yes. So I had a pretty interesting lot of lots of role changes in coin, thankful for the great leadership team that gave me a lot of opportunities. I went from, you know, tester to developer, to account manager to institution Account Manager on the professional services team. So I was working with various different companies on customizing or implementation of coin. Yeah. And then in 2008, just before the GFC hit, fantastic time to leave their work, job, decided to work go into a startup didn’t quite work out. So came back to the industry but sit on the other side, which is Suncorp, which is the client of client and kind of understood how the client side work and how everything kind of pieced together to me going alright, this is how bad this think. Yeah. clients think and, thankfully, the executive manager at that time, Laura Sterling, her name, I still talk with her She encouraged me to start the business and share the experience with the peers around the industry. And that’s the birth of y tml. Which was the pre pre rebranded raw and pre rebranded fresh.

Clayton Daniel
Yeah. What What would you say is the big difference between client side or call it advisor side? And in tech and Dev side? What do you what do you see is the diff, the main difference? And then I’d like to sort of build on that and say, What, over the, over the many years that you’ve been, you know, I guess, a couple of decades now that you’ve been involved in advice, tech, I’d really like to sort of explore what you’ve noticed in terms of the emphasis of change. So I guess, first things first, what’s the difference between the client advisor or advisor side and the dev side?

Kevin Liao
So I would say, you know, depends on which role you play in the business, right? So when you’re on the vendor side, you need to consider for all the other clients that you have. So you need to make sure that anything that comes in, you need to consider all the possibilities of breaking anything for your clients? Or is this something that your other clients would need? So there’s a fair bit of analysis that’s required. So that’s the mentality making sure that you’re trying to satisfy as many people or as many clients as possible, when you’re making some changes. Whereas obviously, on the client side, you know, you will be more thinking about this is for my business, this is what I’ve made, and try and explain as much as possible, in terms of your terms, to the kind of, I would say, the intermediaries, which is normally the account managers or the project managers or whatever. Which a lot of the times get translated differently. You will have seen some LinkedIn photos of how projects work starting from what clients want to work project manager sees it what business manager see a business analyst season, what do you develop? It’s give you right, yeah, that that is that happens. Right? So and there’s a miss, there’s a lot of miscommunication. And a lot of the time, it’s not because people want to be wrong, it’s just because you have different backgrounds, different terminologies, different definitions. Yeah, so so the more experience that people are in the project, obviously, this miscommunication risk just reduces. So I guess this is where kind of when we started the business. In 2010, that’s the problem. Why tml solved, becoming the bridge between the client and vendor making sure that the right things has been translated correctly. And a lot of the times, we will also do the implementation work, obviously partnering with the vendors.

Clayton Daniel
And then And then, so what would you what would you say has been the changes in what advisors want? From Software over time? How have you seen what advisors are looking to achieve from technology? When I guess, you know, early in your career, what was it and what is it now do you think?

Kevin Liao
I think the reality is, advisors wants more as you go. And so let’s say from the days that we started consulting, obviously, a lot of the efforts were spent on, you know, the delivery of the SLA, which is what you know, today, our business is still very obsessed in. So it’s the different mechanisms of how do you establish certain processes to deliver all these SOS effectively, as well as trying to achieve a zero postmatch outcome, which is very hard.

Clayton Daniel
What is the zero post merge? What’s that

Kevin Liao
zero house merge means you know, no editing required after your job, right? Generate the document. It’s very easy for a single topic fexco template as you add more scope into this or or no comparables, yeah, variables into this. The difficulty of achieving zero postmatch just, you know, increases exponentially as you add stuff. Yeah. So I think that kind of still hasn’t changed too much where a lot of the software needs are really to deliver deliver that SOA, effectively. Yes. There’s a lot of talk around whether or not the legislation will allow the SRS to be shortened. Yeah.

Clayton Daniel
Or, or even, or even sort of cookie cutter, I think that there’s always such a huge, I guess, competing agendas between, you know, you’ll, you’ll sit down, you’ll talk to someone or you hear someone from ASIC speak. And they say, you know, we specifically don’t want advice to all look the same, right? And then you speak to on the tech side, and it is we’re trying to get a result of zero post creation edits done. So that is as efficient as possible. So the advisor, I think, is naturally on the side of the tech provider, the advisor goes, Yeah, of course, like I want, as much work done with the lowest amount of work, or the most, the largest outcome with the smallest amount of input possible. And ASIC, ASIC sort of sort of, it takes a bit of a different approach. And and there is kind of this constant, constant battle, where industry is trying to be efficient, the regulators are trying to, to say that’s not the case. And then I guess the tech providers are in the middle trying to somehow deliver on both. And I guess, I guess that would be a large part of where the difficulty lies. Now, if you kind of think about what what’s occurred in the last even 10 years, but certainly since advice, tech began, it’s an industry that’s grown substantially, I would say, obviously, it’s still not the size of the fund managers, there’s about 1000 of those. There’s about 10, life insurance companies, there’s about 10 investment platform companies, but these days, there’s a lot of tech, there’s, there’s a growing amount of tech, and everyone is trying to solve things in different ways. From looking at it from sort of, where I am the you know, in sort of watching the conversations that are going on inside of x, y, to me, it looks like the whole industry, as well as the advisor conversation is heading towards efficiencies, beyond just the SOA that that to me. So there’s sort of like a pre SOA amount of work at the data collection. There is the post SOA work, which is sort of the transactions in the in the implementations. And then you’ve got companies, like say, Iris, for example, who obviously the largest who, you know, can can theoretically do everything. But it’s a, it’s a software that has like, it stays up to date, but then it has a huge market share, but it isn’t trying to build the, the, you know, like the most appy thing imaginable, then we’ve got mates like, you know, my Adrian patty with with advice revolution, and, and he’s trying to build sort of this really at the kind of effect find, right, and then and then there’s companies like yourself, where you’ve taken, you know, wealth, oh, two and raw agenda, and together and sort of, you know, now it’s called DASH and kind of looking to bring the SOA creation in and the implementation. And it’s, for me, it’s always a case of like, do you go down the route of trying to do everything in one system? Or do you sort of look to go best of breed, so to speak, and eat and eat at each point? And because I’ve seen people get lost in in both of those strategies, and I guess my question to you is like, what do you think is the easiest approach for a financial planner? In order to feel like they’re on top of their tech environment.

Kevin Liao
Okay, so maybe I’ll just bring the discussion back to a little bit about, you know, the past consulting experience. When when we were still at the Y tml stage. We helped a lot of groups, called up coin templates, meeting into templates, boss, Nick, and templates, explained templates. And every single time these templates are coded, it costs 10 to 100k 200k. A pop? Yeah. So you’re thinking, you’ll be thinking, why would you be doing that, like, it’s a big decision for advisor time to make if they’re shifting software, because one they have to pay for data migration, data conversion, and then pay for change of SOA for configuration. And you’d be surprised they are number of groups that has kind of gone between software’s, or have done round robin, and has paid for all these fields of template work. So our view is that, well, what we would like to achieve from the raw days, or including now, the database is a integrated ecosystem that allows advisors to pick and choose whichever provider they want to use for each step of advice process. Right? But integrated.

Clayton Daniel
What does what does it mean to integrate like, how do you is that kind of like Zapier,

Kevin Liao
Zapier is a generic integration based on a automatic automated workflow. So our integration is more based on from again, coming back to the core reasons why you’re using vi software. Two things fall noting of all the communications shown to Vice document creation. Sure, these are the two main things that I advise a look for, as a I would say it’s given feature for device software for them to you know, just take it on. So yeah, so our view is that with this integrated solution, the way that you’re asking, how does it integrate? Well, it depends on which step of the last process. So for example, we are one of our very first blue chip partners as to well who integrate it with us. You know, we would integrate with the fact fine, because a lot of advisors use as the will, for onboarding of new clients.

Clayton Daniel
Whoa, yeah. Astute. We are Yay. Okay, cool. Yep.

Kevin Liao
So we would take all the fat fine details in, then let’s say we integrate with the likes of Omnium and turn west, which then we will be pushing certain factfinder fields, to these providers, to then allow advisors to model the comparisons of the financial products. So each provider should have different type of integration, based on what the advisor is going to be using it for.

Clayton Daniel
Right. So So I guess, in terms of the question that I had before, do you work in one system? Or do you build your own system? You’re saying that whatever the advisor chooses to do, there should be a solution for it? Yes, okay. That makes sense. What have you seen work well, like, like and as in? If you think about your, you know, two decades of working in advice, tech, what are the kinds of businesses that you’ve looked at and gone? Oh, wow. Like, that is simple, effective and efficient.

Kevin Liao
One of our clients coffee and bond. They run their business really well. They built like a what do you call it? A Trello. There’s really left. Yeah, they’ve built a trail like dashboard using roles dashboard, run their workflow on it. They’ve built multiple views based on, you know, users based on what they’re interested in. So every day, they have a really good snapshot. They click on it, they work on the workflows, and then pretty much, you know, they have both expression and let’s say chant Western Omnium. But depending on which advisor or which scenario, they will be using certain licenses for that. So, the good thing about using dash is that, you can, you can turn on X, you can turn on well solver, if you wanted to turn west if you wanted to, right, you just pay two licenses, right, and then starting to generate SLAs without needing of copying and pasting from multiple different documents output from various different software’s into one. So, again, coming back to our obsession in Document Generation immobilise is that, through this integrated ecosystem, were able to collect all the data that advisors are collecting from various different apps that they’re using within our ecosystem, and then generating a document that reduces viruses, manual work. That SLA

Clayton Daniel
s Have you seen and sort of the way that you kind of describe it made me think of a situation like let’s say, because hiring in financial services is a very particular very peculiar. Financial Planning in itself is very peculiar, because, you know, a lot of people want to start their own business. And then a lot of people also don’t want to start their own businesses, right. And then you kind of get these sort of senior financial planners who have worked in a number of different sort of companies over the years, who definitely have a skill sets and an experience set, which might not, how would you put it sort of reflect perfectly to this tech stack that their new employer chooses to use? So the reason I kind of bring that up is the way that you’ve just just explained it, it is. If if, if connections are a huge element of efficiencies, from your point of view, are you saying that you could have different advisors using different tech stack within the same overall overarching environment? That’s crazy to me, I didn’t, I didn’t realize that. Have you? Have you seen it work before?

Kevin Liao
Well, within this practice, he does, right. So that kind of that’s amazing existence. And pretty much all we do is code. The tables or the data is differently based on which data input they

Clayton Daniel
Well, so advisor, a really likes a steward wheel advisor, he really likes my prosperity advisor, see really likes money. So for example, I keep going right? Adviser intelligence, right? Yeah, there’s a million of them out there. And then they plug they, because the advisor has a particular, because that’s the thing, because advice is different from every advisor, they might lean towards a certain type of advice, and therefore may enjoy using a certain type of a tech stack. And that’s yeah, that’s, that’s pretty impressive that there’s a there’s a there’s a business out there that can facilitate the unique journeys that each advisors want within their practice. That’s actually really cool.

Kevin Liao
Yeah, so I mean, that’s what exactly what we want to achieve during your boss is that flexibility, but also giving licenses or practice owners the comfort, we also can provide, like a white listing of providers, let’s say if certain, you know, principles of the business does not like a certain provider in industry, we can rule that out so that advisors in their practice can’t have access to that as well. So that’s that that is also giving a bit of a defensive about, right, yes. So, you know, I always like to use the analogy that, you know, whenever we build technology, it’s like playing a basketball game. I’m a massive fan of basketball. You know, we always talk about defensive play an offensive play. So when we design our solutions, we always think about how can we make sure that there’s both players going on at the same time and which will result in Helping advisors, you know, delivering more and better advice, but at the same time, giving them the efficiency and the governance. And you know, the compliance requirements automatically out of the system.

Clayton Daniel
What Why is it D? And this is this, this is something I’ve thought about for a long time. Why is it? Do you think that there are companies like virtual business plans, for example, right? Well, there are a ton of other outsourcing power planning arrangements in Australia, at a litmus, let’s start in a litmus test, but it’s sort of a stab in the dark, I would say maybe 200, contracted paraplanners, that sort of, you know, typically one or two people shops. It’s it. For as much as in our technology has tried to solve the issues of efficiencies and effectiveness, it seems to be that there’s still a huge element of human involvement. It’s just in a lot of cases, that human involvement is kind of outsourced, rather than rather than handled internally. Which, you know, I came across from accounting into power planning, it’s a, it’s a sad state of affairs, when my previous profession is, is getting outsourced. But, I mean, I get it because I also had a financial planning company. And I also, you know, I had internal paraplanners. Sure, but I also use external. And, and there seems to be, and it’s kind of, it’s hard to explain, but as the advisor, you know, it, there’s an element of, of, I guess, security that you feel when you know that someone has cast their eye over it, it’s kind of it’s almost difficult to explain, but there is a for whatever reason that maybe it’s because technology can’t, or at least I haven’t seen it, bring to your attention. Not so much the logical issues that exist within an SOA, but the illogic ones that are sort of, I guess, hard to pick up in code. You know, for example, if there was a goal that stated, you know, you you want to ride a horse in the Savannah desert in 20 years from now, right, like that. And then And then, and then at no stage during the SOA, does the advice, actually a dress? Because it’s a very strange request. And, you know, how do you articulate that, you know, in automatically so, it, it almost seems because humanity is not able to be put, you know, able to be codified, and everyone has such weird, I guess, unique goals, as you sitting in front of them discussing what they want out of life, it does seem like invariably it needs someone to look at it. How do you how do you view? You know, in terms of tech, and in the relationship with paraplanners, do you ever see a world where tech will replace paraplanners?

Kevin Liao
Well, I think, No, I, again, it comes back to you know, like I said earlier, when we’re trying to achieve zero postmatch if we can achieve that, then yes, you can probably claim that you can, you know, probably say goodbye to the, to this row in the career, or your industry, but it’s highly unlikely pute purely because of the infinite permutations that we get from our clients. And also, you know, the more scenarios they tried to build into the template, you know, the more complex it gets, which means a lot of the times. I mean, we can try and automate a lot of stuff. But there are still many things that you question. Hey, it happens once every two years. Yeah. takes me five minutes to write a paragraph. Yeah, this, you really want to spend 100k. So, so there’s always that and I think based on that there will always be room for post editing. And when there’s room for post editing. You would, there will probably be you know the need of panels since advisors are busy. And a lot of lies is love to just outsource it so that you know you have someone doing it. And then advisors reviewing it. So at least you also establish a validation process as well, which is so so that’s my view. But again, if we kind of come back to the the SOA itself, I think post editing is inevitable. But the present presentation of the document could definitely be improved a lot. Yeah, we, we, you know, it’s a very hard fight with regulators, or even the FL AFSL holders to try and reduce the length of the SOA, yes, we have been reducing. I mean, we used to have, like 400 pages. So as of now we’re down to 100. But still 100. So, you know, our view is there must be a better way. You know, there’s no guarantee that it’s going to reduce down to 25 pages. Yeah, no, it’s why Why spend time fighting for that, when you can probably just use technology to display the SOA differently in a digital format that is more easily consumable for the client, but still have the exact same content. Yes, make sure that the regulators and FSL holders have the confidence that the content has been delivered?

Clayton Daniel
Yeah, well, actually, on that, let’s let’s sort of jump into the future a little bit. Because, you know, one of the things that I find super interesting, and we’ve spoken a little bit about is, is what I like to call genuine or real artificial intelligence, which is less than 12 months old, and it’s a third generation that’s come out of largely open AI, which was something that Elon Musk had a big hand in launching. And, and but at the same time, you’ve got companies like NOD, NOD, sort of, you know, a handful of years ago, pop their head up and said, you know, we’re here to create our, you know, AI driven SOPs, and that that has sort of come to a conclusion at this stage. Maybe it was too early, I think, if you can, you know, they would have only been using generation two. So probably the capabilities weren’t quite there yet. But it was an it was an interesting take still, and I know it gathered a lot of attention. Just it was, it was sort of the first piece of advice tech that was in, quote, unquote, appy, and it was funded and you know, those couple of big names behind it. And then you’ve also got the FPA who have come out and said, you know, video essays now. Now, the ability to be, I’m not sure how it’s done. But you know, the video so if video essays are on the horizon, you know, and undoubtably artificial intelligence will come back into the process, maybe not for a handful of years still say but, you know, undoubtably, that’ll happen? What do you kind of see as, as if you look over the horizon? And I think probably your answer in regards to what advisors find most important at this stage is sort of interconnectivity and flexibility. And I love that. What do you kind of what do you kind of see if you look over the horizon as what’s next? Maybe it’s maybe it’s not next week? What’s What do you think’s coming next?

Kevin Liao
Okay, so that’s coming back to your question regarding AI. So, I mean, not got a fantastic concept. And we were really excited when they come out as well actually reach out to Joe when they got this release to work on the integration. But I guess, unfortunately, they went to a conclusion stage where I think before we could take that AI step, the step that we need to solve first is the reg tech component. If we can solve that first, then you can move into lr generation, and when I say the reg tech component, it’s the lack of you know, Artemis from red marker, you know, semi or take where they will do all the I will say I scan of an SOS Yes. But it feels like at the moment and a lot of these scannings are hardwired rules. Yes, we could actually have Ai given rules being built into this way just learns based on whatever you publish on the next day of, you know, legislation and automatic regenerates the rules and then check the SLA s. Once you have that, then you can generate the SLA s in a compliant way. That’s my butt. We’re probably just not quite at that automation stage yet. I mean, take and semi are doing fantastic jobs are doing what they’re doing. But in terms of where we want to achieve really in the fully automated area? Probably not quite there yet in terms of AI and machine learning.

Clayton Daniel
Yep, totally. What about what about video? SOS?

Kevin Liao
Yes. So in regards to video SLA s, I think what FDA is trying to promote is rather than having a document SOA, you record the video that within the framework. So our view is that I mean, you I think the the what AP fp is trying to do is trying to take you to an extreme, just to think about what can happen in the extreme wealth, and then see how providers in our industry can take that extreme philosophy, and build towards that. I think that’s what IPIs intention is. And our view of that is, rather than having an advisor, recording the SOA Live, which, you know, I get really nervous when recorded life, even now. You know, advisors help me do that day in, day out. But again, we’re humans, we make mistakes. And sometimes we make mistakes without even knowing it. And now you asked me advisors to record that, which you know, made the risks within the video, probably more risk than the SOA if they’ve got to say stuff. Or if they say more than what they’re supposed to do. That kind of stuff, right? They flicking around the laptop, this is all recorded, they flick to somewhere, something that they’re not supposed to frickin, what are you going to do?

Clayton Daniel
It’s actually you, you bring up a really good point, this would be the antithesis of efficiencies, wouldn’t it? If you if you sat down to video record every single

Kevin Liao
SOA, you would,

Clayton Daniel
I couldn’t imagine that would be highly efficient. It’s almost as if it’s almost as if you’d have to do the whole power planning work. And then sit down and record it as well.

Kevin Liao
While they’re recording it with the client, it’s actually part of presentation. That’s

Clayton Daniel
Oh, right. Okay. That makes sense. Yeah. So

Kevin Liao
I think FBI is not tackling this from an efficiency perspective, but as a as a new concept. Whereas the way that dash delivers our view of how this should be, you know, you know, taken up by the industry is, you know, it should be a combination of a digital SLR, where it’s a consumable, interactive advice document that attracts the consumers to read and try and understand the SOA and at any point of time, have all the rights or all the opportunity to ask questions and automatically track that. And then if advisors like to, they can also have this sent out together with a video avatar that explains the text, or the content, or the graph with the right way. So that, you know, it’s not really just visual, but it’s also you know, on your with your ear, you can hear yes, we’ve got a avatar there that tries to explain things you can feel like if that advertise the advisor themselves.

Clayton Daniel
I’m just imagining Melbourne night thing was windows 98, where Clippy was on. It’s like the advisor head to say, Hey, I’m Mr. CLIPPY. Come Click on me if you need The explanation?

Kevin Liao
Yes. So our view is, you know, we can’t change the legislation, surely Yeah, at least now, it’s really hard. That’s trying not to change that. Yeah, let’s figure out another way of displaying this or deliver this, but also with a bit of a human touch, and a little bit more medium in terms of visual audio tracking, time tracking, whether or not the client has actually logged in and read it, commented yet. Version controls, all that in one package. And then at the end, when the client accepts, and it goes to finance.

Clayton Daniel
One of the things that you said before it was kind of interesting, in terms of, you know, maybe the future is an engaging SOA, are no, no. So not engaging, interactive, I think was the word used. But I think back to my SOA is they were neither engaging nor interactive. It’s something that I’ve spoken to Jackie Henderson at advice intelligence, about, as well, as she has a view that the SOS can be interactive. What What do you mean by an interactive SOA?

Kevin Liao
Interactive means the charts or graphs are, like, dynamic, it’s infographic. So it’s doesn’t look like just charts,

Clayton Daniel
right? So you can toggle you can you can you can move things around. Yeah,

Kevin Liao
or you can interesting, you know, like, you know, speed on a meter, where once you load it, it goes.

Clayton Daniel
Right?

Kevin Liao
experience, and then the next stage is probably even having a, a calculator on the discus. Hey, if you really want you can play around with the numbers here.

Clayton Daniel
Right? So, you know, maybe like a slide bar on how much you like a salary sacrifice kind of thing. Okay, so I give up $200 per week, but it only has an impact of $150 per week, but I ended up with, you know, $300,000 Extra in retirement or whatever.

Kevin Liao
Yeah. And then you just track that, send that thought out to the the advisor, advisor comes back with a new soI and get a time.

Clayton Daniel
That’s super interesting. So then I’ll write and then and I mean, the advisor would have to have a pretty clear, I guess, response to whether they felt that was the right idea or not.

Kevin Liao
And that is really the value that advisors creates, right?

Clayton Daniel
Well, that’s amazing. Okay, I like it. So

Kevin Liao
they can say this is what I want. Yeah. Well, have you actually considered that other stuff as well?

Clayton Daniel
Yes. Oh, which is a huge value add, right. That’s an interesting concept. So it’s almost, yes, the interactivity is cool, or engaging. But the purpose of it is to generate a conversation and an ability to show value that yes, it’s great that you want to do this, however, bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla, considering your best interests. This is what I think, you know, I liked that. I really liked that. I, I, you know, I’m pretty bullish on human led advice. And I really liked that as a great way to wrap up this conversation. I think I think that’s a very cool sort of next step on what’s whether Verizon is going and I think it’s going to formulate a bit of my thinking about where I think advice is going. So Mike, I really appreciate you coming on your I don’t think I don’t think I’ve ever sort of out of the we’ve done over 500 Australian based podcasts at this stage, which is really hard for me to even fathom but I don’t think I’ve ever had someone on, you know, who’s a biomedical engineer turned advice tech developer and now you know how to product and yeah, I just I really want I we’ve had some interesting conversations, and I’m really happy to sort of bring those conversations to the podcast. So Mike, thank you very much for coming on.

Kevin Liao
Thank you. Thank you, everyone.