#311 Liam Shorte – Transcript

Ben Nash
Hey guys, Ben Nash from the XY advisor team and pumped to be here today with the one and only Mr. Liam Shorte. Liam is huge in the XY community if you’ve been hiding under a rock but he is director is an SMSF specialist advisor at Verante keen to pick Liam’s brain and the the evolution of his business and some of the lessons learned along the way. Liam, thanks for joining us, man.

Liam Shorte
Great to join you.

Ben Nash
Made I’m Yeah, it’s interesting background and some of the stories which will no doubt cover but I thought maybe a good place to start would be just the, I suppose the how you kicked off your business. And you know how you ended up where you are today?

Liam Shorte
Yeah, well, look, I married a Aussie nurse in the Middle East in Saudi Arabia, come back here for six months in 2001. And never left. So basically, I had to start off from scratch again. So got a job in a accounting and financial planning firm, I was originally meant to do a bit of marketing for them. But the week I started the paraplanner, fell in love and left the business. So I stepped in, I knew I was going to have to do the exams and everything anyway, so that power planning was a great way to learn it. So first few years just power planning, learning soaking everything I cut up. And because it was a mixed financial planning and accounting firm, and a lot of it revolved around the use of SMSFs and retirement planning. So yeah, the first few years we’re all learning and then hit a bit of a hurdle in 2005, and had a problem with my, my boss and ended up being a bit of a whistleblower. Because we were looking to merge a number of firms at the time and the in the due diligence, an issue came up that we couldn’t ignore. So I basically talked myself out of a job at that stage, and had to restart. But as part of the what happened with that I ended up having to go out and see every client did 65,000 kilometers that year. And it’s from there, I got my own license and started building a business. I really started looking at, you know, what people were looking for, in advice. And in the areas I lived and worked, it was very much a case of pre retirement planning and retirement planning. And, you know, I was because I was starting practically from scratch, I had to figure out ways to get in front of accountants and get in front of clients. So, yeah, go ahead,

Ben Nash
I was just gonna say, because you’ve given me a bit of the backstory on this, before we fly it up the camera and the you know, the, without going into all of the detail, there were a few clients who got really badly burned. So essentially, you’re sent out to assure you know, all of the other clients that everything was fine, and that their money was safe and everything that was there and essentially give them the you know, make, make sure that they’ve got that peace of mind, but then give them the option of finding another financial planner, and 65,000 kilometers later, and all of those client conversations that essentially, so many of the clients wanted to stay with you looking after them that your licensee told you to set up your own business, essentially. So that’s I’d say that I fell into being a business owner. But if there’s a story about how that happened, that was one of the most interesting ones I’ve ever.

Liam Shorte
Yeah, so And look, it was a great learning curve. And it did teach me that because I’d had interaction with those clients over two or three years. It’s amazing how much trust one, I learned that trust can be abused. But to learn how much even just over the phone with people and dealing with them via email, you do build up a lot of trust over the years. So it is a real asset, if you can, if you can work with that. To get further referrals, and work on work on your business from there. You know, when it came to 2008, I was I was I would say I was struggling. I was working in partnership with a local accounting firm down here in Castle Hill. I was getting some business from them fairly good. It was coming through but I really need to step up if I wanted to survive in the in the industry. So I was sitting down with a gentleman called Colin Williams, who’s been in the industry for a long time. And he said you need to find a niche. And he said if you’re in the area you’re working in, why don’t you look at the SMSF space. got totally blown away by what he was talking about went home that night, but the Twitter handle both the website SMSF coach.com. That au.com Basically, yeah, everything I could do about it, got it together, set up a WordPress press blog really realized that there was a lot of technical information out there for SMSF in retirement planning Nobody, nobody was breaking it down into plain English. So just started doing a blog once a week, and just taking technical articles taking out all the legislation and all the jargon and just break it down into plain English for people. I started that about 2009 2010. For the first few years, it was it was really going nowhere, but it was getting me a bit of attention. I was I was being asked for comments by, you know, the the papers, I was getting on Sky News business channel. So it was creating a regular stream of publicity. And now I look at my blog, and I’ve got about 256 entries on there. I haven’t done a blog in 10 months. And yet I still get it, I’m still getting such a flow of business through from it. So it really is a case of if you’re trying to build a niche, try and build the collateral that you don’t have to keep on doing new stuff all the time. If it’s good advice, it’s going to last longer term. So try and not just try it out yourself down to specific dates, and just build that collateral over time so that it doesn’t work for you, rather than you having to chase it all the time. Yeah, absolutely.

Ben Nash
I was actually just chatting to his company that we’re doing a bit of a content partnership with at the moment. And I somewhat similar to you when I started, pivot in 2015. And at that time, I’d like I’d never written a blog before I was like, oh, you know, give this a go. And I did a blog weekly for a while. And you know, as these things go, like similar to you started getting some results build a bit of momentum, one thing leads to another thing, but I like you have not done a while I’ve done a few blogs, which I’ve used as our sales and marketing collateral, and then put them as as blogs. But I haven’t consistently blog for a number of years. But in doing this content partnership, they said have you got anything around these particular topics, and I went back down through the archives. And I found that there was there was like half a dozen articles that were the same, the exactly the same. It’s like, you know how to make it easy to save more money, how to build another income investing, like these things that do sort of last forever. But I think one of the things that you touched on there is really consistency is key. And there’s so many things when it comes to marketing that you can do. And I’ve definitely fallen into this trap before as well that you can do you know every social channel at the same time, and you can do paid advertising, and you can do online courses and webinars and all of these things. But you generally can’t do them all unless you’ve got a business and it’s got a whole marketing team in it. And where people go wrong, I think and where I’ve gone wrong in the past is you play at the surface level. And then you it’s not working and it takes a lot of time. You’re like stuff this like it’s not worth the bang for the buck. And then you stop and you don’t see it to get results sort of like what happens with our clients that if they get too caught up on strategies and aren’t consistent that they’re not going to get the results. either. But interesting you from what you were saying they’re around the fact that you’ve targeted the niche to target your referral partners. I’ve never actually come across that before. I feel like that’s a really novel idea makes a lot of sense. But you go okay, well, accountants need they need an SMSF solution. And they they’re going to be open to that conversation. So if you’ve got an ideal referral partner, why not put your niche beside them? That’s great.

Liam Shorte
Well, the big concern I had was accountants just didn’t trust financial planners. So I just couldn’t, you know, I couldn’t build a business, because I couldn’t get the referrals. But then when I started writing the blogs, after a year or two, I found out that it was the staff and the accounting firms were looking were googling for solutions for the clients, they would find my blog. And you know, for example, one of the best blogs I’ve ever done is just the stamp duty concessions in each state for moving a property into a self managed Superfund. Okay, I do very little property, but nobody could find that information. I got a lawyer to just check it all make sure it was correct. Log constantly gets about 20,000 hits a year. So I was just finding that the the juniors in the accounting firms were saying to their bosses, look, the client needs to do this. You need they need to get advice. Do they have a planner? No, they don’t. This guy has written an article explains all how to do it. Maybe we should just send them to them. And then I was getting asked to come into the accounting firm, instead of knocking on the door and saying, Can I come in have a chat with you? In most cases, they’re saying no. Finally I was being asked to come in and actually speak to their staff and speak to their clients. The main reason I targeted the niche was I found there was a lot of people wanting to know about retirement planning and SMSFs were the flavor of the day. But very quickly I realized that only if A two or three out of 10 needed an SMSF. Yeah, every client that came in asking about one was engaged, they wanted to manage that they wanted to put money away for retirement, they wanted to put more into super, they wanted, they wanted a bit more control. So it was a case of the came in, analyze what they needed. So thought of an SMSF was required. If it wasn’t we had other solutions. So other retail fund or an industry fund, and sometimes saying no to somebody is such a great way of building trust. Because I would say to look, you don’t need an SMSF for what you want to achieve. So here’s some other solutions. And this is how much it will save you by going down that route, rather than taking on the risk yourself of trying to pick investments and,

Ben Nash
and the admin and even if you’ve got an admin provider, it’s still laborious exercise for sure. I think a lot of people, though, are fearful in niching, that they’re going to be cutting themselves out to, you know, the broader market, if they do pick a niche. What’s your theme, your experience with that land?

Liam Shorte
Look, I have all sorts of clients. So purely, I just want anybody who’s engaged and wants to be involved in their planning. And for me that it worked the most, by choosing that niche. Most of my clients don’t know anything about the SMSF. Coach, because they’ve been referred on from another client, who we’ve done, they may have an SMSF, but they’re just your the friends once the retirement planning they come in. And then if they if I don’t see any need for an SMSF, I’m not even mentioning it to them. So it’s just purely you you’ve got to have something to get them in the door. And then it’s a case of finding, you know, we all have to act in best interests. So if I don’t think a client is right for, for an SMSF. I don’t put them in there. I’ve never actually, I don’t think I’ve ever actually suggested a client go into an SMSF. Most of them have come and asked should day. And I decided I made a recommendation yes or no.

Ben Nash
Yeah, amazing. But I think it makes sense that that a lot of people don’t understand a lot of advice consumers or you know, just general sort of finance. People like just general people, they don’t understand what an SMSF means. And they they’re drawn to an SMSF because they feel like it gives them control. But these days, you can get all that control with, you know, with other solutions. So it makes sense that they’ve obviously got an interest to get them in and start the conversation. And that might be start with what they want or what they think they want that then you can uncover what they need and deliver to that lamb. What’s What have been the biggest shifts in your business. So you’ve been at it for quite a while, what have been the biggest changes that you’ve made over that time?

Liam Shorte
Look, I would say originally, like most young planners, I thought it was an investment guru to start with. And I quickly realized over time that, you know, the, the index does very well, industry funds do very well. So I stopped trying to be the investment guru. And from probably 2011 onwards, I concentrated on strategy. And every time I’m talking to clients, it’s like I will start with the strategy will eventually get to the investments. But you know, people, most people think in financial planner, it’s just doing investing. So if you can turn that conversation around and show them how much added value you can do. You know, on the strategy side, I had clients in this morning, who they’re just retiring, and we’re doing the downsizer contribution, withdrawal and re contribution strategies. They’ve sold a property. So we’re doing carry forward concessional contributions to offset tax. And at the very end of and I’m going, Oh, by the way, here’s where the investments are going to be put. And so we’ve done an hour and strategy and five minutes on where the investments are going.

Ben Nash
Yeah, yeah. Well, I think increasingly, that it’s that is the main focus. And I think, you know, who knows what the future looks like. But I also love the index. I think, even for non people that don’t want to follow that sort of approach, though, that in the future, it’s likely that tech is going to be a big part of investment choices for people and it sort of what does that leave for financial planners? It’s exactly it’s exactly that it’s the strategy. It’s the coaching the guidance to support the giving people confidence to take action. So I think if you don’t have that in your, in your repertoire, that you’re, you’re potentially going to need to build the muscle at some point.

Liam Shorte
And look, one of the things I realized probably after four or five years in advisor was that people don’t have the confidence to retire. So you’ve got to put them in a position where they’re control that, that decision. So I get a lot of people coming in around 55 They say, Oh, we’re gonna have to work towards 67 or 70. I look at their situation and going they’ve They’ve saved really hard, they’ve put themselves in a really good position. If we do this properly, you know, I say, look, let’s look at 62. I think we can do that as a realistic strategy. And we might do a stretch goal or 60. How does that sound? And yeah, they just got hurt, you know how, and they’re always thinking of their take home pay. So they may be on a big salary. But if they’re, if they’re on 200,000, they’re losing 35% of that in, in tax. Now, they don’t realize that if they’re structured properly in retirement, you know, there’s no tax, we get tax free pensions, plus some assets outside that end up being tax free as well. And that really, you know, once you show the sustainability, of a decent retirement income based on what they have, they are now in control of that decision to retire. And more and more, you know, I used to always be working on retire at 6567. With nearly every client now I’m stretching them on come on, come on let’s you really want to be working at that age? Or? Or do you want to have a choice whether you work at that age? And so nearly most clients now it’s a real stretch goal to be in charge of the decision around 6062? That’s probably the biggest change.

Ben Nash
I love it. And I think it’s how much is that confidence worth? You know, that pays for itself just in itself. But obviously, you know, there’s the dollars that sit behind it as well, then what are the things that haven’t changed in your business over the time that you’ve been going?

Liam Shorte
Paperwork? Clients, it’s just got more and more of them. But I just think over the last few years, it’s quite ridiculous. The amount of pages I’m putting in front of clients now for a fixed term service agreement, a fee form for each of their their superannuation and their pensions, it’s just authority to access information. And then you’ve got each of the industry funds and retail funds have got it got their own version of forms. To do this. Most of what we do is 90%. The same with every every fund and every fund manager and every every insurance company we deal with, yet they all feel the need to have different types of forms.

Ben Nash
It’s a barrier that they put there on purpose, because it’s like it’s it slows down access, or I don’t really know what the strategy is around that. Because ultimately, if someone’s going to change, they’re going to change. But maybe there’s enough people that just get jack of having to jump through all the hoops and give off that makes it worthwhile.

Liam Shorte
Yeah, but from a client’s point of view, they only see it once a year. So if it was a standard form, they could they could trust that they understood that there was no chance of fraud. The if, if there was one form that was used by the industry, it would be much from their point of view would be much safer. But yeah, so that’s one of my bugbears on you in the SMSF space. It’s all the different trustees. You know, 99% of people could use the exact same trustee, and yet everybody’s out there speaking their own versions of it. And for something that most clients will never even read. Then as an advisor, I’ve got a read. It’s a major pain.

Ben Nash
Lamb what’s the what do you see as the key drivers of your the growth of your business?

Liam Shorte
Look, one I’ve built up, built up the brand, have built a reputation. Now we’ve got we’ve got the flow of business coming in. At the moment we’re in stagnating because we just can’t find good planners. Yeah, so I could probably double the business easily if we had, you know, good planners on board, that so many people need advice. Now. There’s a huge cohort in that 60 to 65 age group. And now, you might add 35 year old clients, their children are coming to 5560. And they want to travel, they want to ensure that there is a transfer of wealth to them that works smoothly. So I think a big thing over the next 10 to 30 years is intergenerational wealth transfer. And getting that right. And I just see so many advisors that don’t even ask details about the children. You know, they get the names of the agents, and that’s it. It’s important to understand who’s gonna be the decision maker, when your client can’t handle it for themselves. You know, I had one case where, you know, when I was younger, I didn’t ask that question. The father passed away. We delivered really steady returns and good, exactly what the parents wanted. Once the son became involved to help the mother, he decided to become a day trader with their money. No, no, you know, so He didn’t want me involved at all. That was fine. But she came back five years later, and half the wealth had disappeared. So if I’d been involved in a conversation earlier on, then we could have engaged with the son made him understand what the parents had been trying to achieve each year because they wanted income. He was younger generation, he just wanted to make as much money as possible. With that extra risk comes the risk of loss as well. And that’s what happened.

Ben Nash
And how are you practically dealing that like, how are you? How are you tackling that with your clients, with new clients with the clients that you’ve been working with, for a while,

Liam Shorte
very much true estate, the estate planning to start with, who really worked with the clients on who’s going to be their enduring power of attorney and their enduring guardian. And then the minute we start really having to plan them to bring them along for a meeting. Or we also offer that if they need advice themselves, we’re happy to have an initial meeting and see if we can help without being fully engaged. But now I’m having that second generation are becoming clients. So not only will I be taking over the parents, you’re taking care of the parents, I’m taking care of the children and the inheritance that’s going to come to the children as well. And once you get one of them in the door, more than likely, the other kids are going to come on board as well when the inheritance comes, because everyone just wants a solution.

Ben Nash
Yeah, totally. We sort of go a little bit the other way in that most of our clients are like 3545. And they’re one of their, because our clients are pretty generally, you know, pretty solid levels of wealth that their big concerns is making sure the parents are provided for. So it’s almost like that there’s that it goes both ways. But there is that bigger concern for people that are doing sort of okay, that it’s like, let’s make sure that they’re doing really well. So that doesn’t become something that’s consuming their resources at the wrong time. Obviously, they want to help each other but making sure that it’s set for that. But how do you I’ve sort of struggled with that in you know, just the different engagements, obviously, I suppose it’s a bit different if you’re going from 80 to 50, because a lot of your clients are in across those brackets. But I’ve found that going the other way it can be going from 30 to 60, or 70. That is a little bit of a barrier in terms of the conversation, are there any sort of hacks or lessons that you’ve learned there? And how to drive engagement for someone that’s peripheral, but not necessarily, you know, drinking the Kool Aid,

Liam Shorte
we find you don’t push it, you just make make them aware you’re there. And we’ve got a financial knowledge center, which is provided by IRS that we we provide free to our clients, and it’s got a database of articles on tax, estate planning, superannuation, everything like that. So we often we’ll, we’ll get the question, you know, we’ve got a son who’s 30, he wants to start up a new super fund, where should he go, I just say, get them to come in, we’ll do a small statement of advice. We’ll, it’s normally discounted based on the parents needs. And with the younger clients, what we do to them say, like you need to know what your parents have in place. Because if they don’t have an enduring power of attorney, and you have to step in at some stage, you’re gonna have to go to the tribunal to get help them out. And I had a client during COVID, that got stuck down in Victoria for nearly two months, because they had to go to the Victorian tribunal to get to be able to control the assets of the parent. And, yeah, he was trying to run a business at the same time. So it’s very, you know, it’s not just the parents need to have stuff in, in placement, the kids need to know that that’s in place, so that their time isn’t messed up in the future as well. So but with a lot, it’s just don’t push it, make sure you’re available, if they’re needed, even if it’s for just a bit of general advice, and just constantly tell the parents to make sure your children know who they need to come to. If something goes wrong.

Ben Nash
Hmm, do you find that they use the they use those articles a learning center or your content?

Liam Shorte
Not Not a lot. But the whole idea is that they’re getting the newsletter once a month. So it’s a trigger point. And what I do find is maybe after six months, someone will contact us and say, look, and we’ve seen a lot in the last year where because of that my super ratings thing you know where some of the super funds did really poorly. We suddenly had people going look, I’ve been with one of these underperforming funds for 15 years. I think we’ve got enough in there now that mom and dad have used you I think we need to come and see you. And actually you’re sort of selves out because it’s a large A lot of money that we’ve ignored up to now. But when suddenly, suddenly, suddenly somebody tells you it’s not performing, then you take notice,

Ben Nash
totally. And it’s just that constant tap on the shoulder as well, that knowing that you’re there, I think, like the analogy that like people get a bit, they see something like, oh, yeah, that sounds like a good idea. Yeah, I should do that. And then they don’t do anything. And then it’s like, when the next time that it happens, it’s like, oh, shoot, I still haven’t done anything about that, or it’s still there. And then ultimately, like, it’s, you know, like, it’s easy for life to get in the way, but then they just make that decision. And.

Liam Shorte
And if you’re, if you’re top of mind, they’ll reach out to you. Look, everyone’s busy. And I’ve only realized that six years ago, seven years ago, that my clients, most of them had never had another planner. So they didn’t refer because they didn’t know if I was a good planter or not. Yeah, they had confidence in me, but they didn’t have the confidence to tell somebody else that they should come to me. So you know, get again, someone said, Well, look, go into some of the awards, try and get some awards, because it gives your clients an anchor on which to refer you. So I did that around 2017 18 and went into the SMSF Awards and won a couple of awards. Did you know I did the the financial standards, power 50 Every year venture was in there. And it doesn’t take much. So now, I’ve got clients who don’t have SMSFs. But the very fact that I’ve got an award for something to say, well, that means you must be fairly good at what you do. And they refer people to me. So it’s good.

Ben Nash
Yeah, it’s just that external validation, I think to as a yardstick to measure against that, even if they don’t understand the ins and outs of it. It’s still in itself that they go there. I think that’s why social media is so helpful as well, that you’re constantly there. And it’s like, they’re like, oh, that seems to make sense. Maybe that person shonky. Or maybe they’re lunatic, and then it’s like, you’re still there, and you’re there next year, and the year after the year after that, there’s something in that, because it’s got

Liam Shorte
that idea of consistency, as well. I love social media, you know, it’s my way, it’s my way of winding down but and that’s your that’s how a lot of the way I built my brand in the first place. Because I didn’t know very many people. I’ve just answered people’s questions. Or if if somebody was in the newspaper, and an article was tweeted, and there’s something in there, that wasn’t clear, I just make it clear in a tweet or Facebook post. And eventually, what would happen was the journalist would start calling me for the for the answer, and asking me what I thought was the solution. And once you do that consistently, you make friends with them, and they reach out to you whenever they need help.

Ben Nash
And it’s all momentum, I think with that stuff, that’s been my experience that you start doing something and then it leads to something, you know, something small, and then you keep doing that, and then it leads to something a little bit bigger. And then the thing is just get to get a little bit bit bigger, a little bit better, a little bit better for business, a little bit more of an opportunity, a little bit more profile, and they feed on feed on each other. So it’s great to see what’s what’s coming up for you, what’s the what’s your focus what’s on the radar,

Liam Shorte
I’ve got a huge backlog. So for me, I really need to get on top of that, hire one or two more planners and get get that up and running. And but first of July, for anybody involved in retirement planning is a major shift. So from the first of July 2020, to you know, your client is going to be able to put money into supers non concessional up to 75 years of age without a work test. So there’s going to be so many real contributions strategies, like a big opportunity to save on the Death Benefits Tax. So moving money from taxable component to tax free component that is huge, you know, the fact that we’ve got an extra 10 years or so, you know, eight years to do that. You know, I saw the government coming out with the reducing the downsizer to 55. Well, you know, if you’re 55, you can get 2.4 3 million in disability for 75. Just using a non concessional, you don’t need the downsizer unless you’re very rich. So it’s a case, again, it comes back to concentrate on the strategies, that the areas where you can add value to clients. And that’s more and more where I’m focusing is just trying to make sure that we’re not just looking at how to set them up for retirement or how to fund the income in retirement. But they’re looking at what happens afterwards when they do pass away. Especially with the limits on on what can be in pension phase, whether or not you know when the first person passes away, whether does all the money go to the spouse, or do we start getting it out to the next generation at that stage. So There’s more use of insurance bonds, more use of trusts. My clients are not multi multi millionaires. I work in Castle Hill, the Hawkesbury, in northwest Sydney, they’re just mum and dad’s. But the wealth that most moms and dads have built up the house is fairly substantial. And they want to make sure it goes properly to the next generation

Ben Nash
as they should, and you know, it’s not, it’s not easy going with that stuff. And I think it’s great to see all the strategic opportunities that are out there, I think that’s one of the things that I love about being a planner is that there’s always something more to learn. And then they change, you know, everything, or almost everything. And, you know, it’s great creates a new set of things that are there. But

Liam Shorte
you look at something like the carry forward, concessional contributions, you know, I picked up a few clients in the last few months who’d sold properties, they never, they have bugger all super. And then I suddenly said, look, you’ve got a $300,000 capital gain, you haven’t put any money into super, in five years, I can get 100,000 of the capital gain reduced to 15%. Tax. And it just blows their mind that they didn’t know about these things. And suddenly, you’ve got somebody who’s a property investor not interested in financial planning. And suddenly they get awakened to what the opportunities that are available, and you’ve got a life.

Ben Nash
Totally. And I think, like you were saying, early on, it’s like you get them in with what they what they want, or what they think they want. And then you give them what they need to create to see, Lee and my last question for you is that if you could go back to, you know, day one of your business, the you’re about to, you know, put out a shingle, what would be the one piece of advice that you would give yourself

Liam Shorte
that you have to build up a profile. You know, there are so many advisors out there that you have to differentiate yourself from from the rest are you have to target an issue, you can’t be a master of everything. I tried to be a mortgage broker early on, you know, I thought I have a degree in accounting and economics. So I thought I might do the accounting work, I’ve very clearly understood and probably learned from the SMSF space, that you’re better off working as a team that other professionals and try and do that early on. If I had known one thing would have been to, to be reaching out and building relationships much earlier on, and being build trusting relationships, not revolving around how much each is going to pay you in commissions or fees. But what the value you can add to each other’s businesses. I did some of the the state planning I see is cruel, you know, where lawyers have just written a mom and dad will not taking into consideration disabled children or children in businesses are in bad relationships. And when you step in there and say, Look, you need to go to a lawyer who’s really going to take care of you and understand your needs, you get nothing from it, but the client that the trust that you build with that client and that you transfer to that, you know, that’s listener is huge. And that comes back over time.

Ben Nash
Totally. And I think that that’s what allows you as well to be you be the expert in your lane you need you need people that are experts in there so that the clients are still getting that whole view. But I think the days of being all things to all people is hard. And almost the days of instantly integrated businesses, there is a lot of commercial reality, you know, from a client perspective, and also from a business perspective, it’s hard to do that in a sustainable, efficient and profitable way.

Liam Shorte
To me, it’s difficult to meet best interests. If you’re trying to just put everybody in one. One hole, fit them all into one area. You know, I’ve got accountants and administrators, that you’re different ones who are different people on the SMSF space. I’ve got lawyers who do a lot of complex estate planning, simple estate planning. They’re in different parts of the country. Some of them are online, and the clients never meet them. But just you have to have that variety if you if you try and just pigeonhole everybody. You’ve done it to yourself and there it’s a service long term.

Ben Nash
And it’s hard also hard to stand out from the crowd like you say with a niche if you’re trying to be all things to all people as well. So made definitely some wise words there. But thank you so much for for sharing your insights. It’s great to watch you continue to kick goals as well. So, really appreciate your time. And yeah, looking forward to the next conversation.

Liam Shorte
Thank you very much. It’s great