#310 Annie Bolitho – Transcript

Jess Brady
This week’s guest is Annie Bolitho. She’s an end of life companion and celebrant. She’s also the author of death, a love project. So today, of course comes with a big fat trigger warning. We’re talking about end of life, about how to have those important conversations about what she’s learned from over 20 years in this field. I learned a lot and I think you want to welcome Annie, thank you so much for being on today’s podcast.

Annie Bolitho
She is it is so good to be here. I’m really happy to meet you enjoyed listening to a cup of your podcasts and really got a lot out of them. So great.

Jess Brady
Well, that is very exciting news, especially because you are in a different field to the one that I’m in. And that is why I’ve had I had a little email pop into your inbox saying hello, I’ve learned about you. And I’m fascinated. And I’d like you on the podcast to learn more. So without further ado, Annie, can you tell us a little bit more about your story?

Annie Bolitho
Sure. Look, my story’s that said and it’s taken a long time for it to settle, really. And we’re talking about how end of life affects people. And it affects me really badly as a young person, like so badly. Now, it’s good to say before, you know what I realized listening to your podcast is that people in your field in my field have a lot in common things is that we’re trying to insist that people be practical. Yeah. That it’s not just in the realm of maybe some day, it’s like, no, now we need to be practical. Yeah. That wasn’t the case for my parents. So my father died without a will when I was young. My siblings and I both had other traumatic experiences. And all of a sudden, you know, we’re young. And here’s this situation, that none of us are in a position to resolve, you know, searching every cupboard looking for a will and not finding it. And then you know, you’ve got to split up the assets and how you do that. And, yeah, it just left such a bad legacy, as I mentioned, are also experienced a number of other people dying in quite traumatic circumstances around the same time. So I just came out of that, thinking, no one should have to deal with this. And, you know, a lot of our society puts an emphasis on the whole feeling and emotional side of death. And of course, that’s very real, it’s a massive part of it. But equally, the practical side is really, really important, of course, and the better that you can do the practical stuff, the easier the emotional stuffs gonna be. So yeah, and I know that from my experience that My father not having sorted that will, and my mother having died earlier, we were very on our own and very much spiraled into a bad emotional state for a long time. So yeah, I just now really want to help people think about some of the things that can really help them and their families just come to a place where they know that they’ve just given some attention to a few things, too demanding. And that later, that’s just gonna make such a huge difference.

Jess Brady
I mean, what you do now fascinates me, and we’re going to talk about it in more detail. But it’s so needed in my mind, and so sad that for you, it was born out of the fact that you didn’t have that. And if you had, and had you been left in a completely different circumstance, you possibly wouldn’t be doing what you’re doing.

Annie Bolitho
So I think that’s something that is true for a lot of people who work in this field. People have had experiences that they conclude shouldn’t happen to others, and they try their best to do it differently.

Jess Brady
So can you help our listeners understand, on a practical level, what it is that you do day to day.

Annie Bolitho
So I have a few things that I do and kind of say on an educator around end of life. So people can come to me and have a consult, and just talk about things. It’s not a area where people find it easy to have a conversation necessarily, in a family with friends, often people kind of don’t want to, and just be able to do it. It doesn’t need to be a therapeutic relationship. I want to talk about this aspect of life. That’s very important. So yeah, I consult with people face to face and on online platforms. Some people have questions around how they’re going to talk with their family, for example, some people might be thinking more about their options, that end of life, how they want to celebrate, funeral Memorial, all of those kinds of things. That’s very fulfilling. I help people who want to record their life stories when they’ve got a terminal diagnosis. And that’s something that again, I find really wonderful work because it’s not just an opportunity to leave a legacy for your family. But also, you know, here and there, we might pick up the discussion of what it means to be in this circumstance at the moment. I run workshops. Last year, I did some work for City of Melbourne helping people who are aging in the city of Melbourne to stay in charge with end of life, and also a funeral celebrant and help people to get the kind of arrangements they want, then

Jess Brady
it’s interesting the point that you put around staying in control, there was some research and I will need to find it around financial abuse affecting predominantly women and the elderly community. And it was extraordinary in terms of the number that they put on it. And I can imagine that that is an extremely challenging sort of cross section of where we both made our sort of platforms meet, which is

Annie Bolitho
why I think there are a lot of areas where we meet. Because when it comes to financial planning, there are obviously going to be long term relationships with people if you’ve got clients who have been doing their financial planning with you. You know, there may come a time when someone needs to be thinking more about estate planning and will work to the best advantage of everybody. I think also, you know, some people wouldn’t be wanting to think about their kids getting the kind of advice that you offer. For example, in my circumstance, the state was divided up between Tina’s wish they’d been someone like you, where I could have sought professional financial advice from, rather than just kind of struggling around with some ideas and probably very influenced by my parents views because I was so young. So yeah, I think there’s heaps of crossovers.

Jess Brady
I completely agree. Now one thing you left out which I would love to touch on, because I I know about you because we have a mutual connection. And when she told me this, I was so fascinated, which is what got me Googling and learning more about you. Can you please talk about the death cafe’s.

Annie Bolitho
So look, you’ve mentioned and everyone who works around end of life, for example, in palliative care in residential aged care, everyone’s kind of interested in how to promote conversations about death. But I think they all recognize that if people talked about it more when they were well and happy and able, be so much easier down the tracks. At this time, there are a lot of initiatives trying to increase what’s broadly called Death literacy. And, for example, palliative care in Victoria provides cards that are kind of conversation starters. And there’s an initiative called Dead dinner party in the US that’s been taken up in Australia as well. There’s an organization called groundswell, which is probably one of the main advocacy organizations in Australia for death literacy, they do a workshop called 10 things to know before you go. And death Cafe is probably one of the most successful amongst all these initiatives. And perhaps the reason why is that it’s got a very open agenda. It doesn’t kind of have any sort of menu that it lays on people. Anyone who comes to Deaf Cafe can simply join a conversation with strangers because they want to talk about it. And the conversations completely open. So I’ve always enjoyed doing them, because I’m a professional facilitator. So that makes it easier for me to help people to have fulfilling conversations and to warm up to each other around this really difficult topic.

Jess Brady
And do you find most of the people that would go to the death cafes or join the death cafes are there because they are having to have end of life conversations, either because they have have become sick and aware of their mortality, because they’re getting older because someone in their family, or someone close to them has been diagnosed or passed away recently, or they’re common themes? Or are people just happy to go to this because it’s an area where it is taboo, and they want to lean in and learn more?

Annie Bolitho
Look, I think there’s very diverse reasons people attend. And you’d be surprised how many people just have a basic curiosity, talk about death. And they just find there’s nowhere that they can talk about it. So that’s a certain cohort are often people who are between like 18 and 35. And for some of those people, that can be quite a passion, you know, that they’re doing a lot of internet searching, and just generally informing themselves on a topic they think is important, but no one wants to talk about then they’re those people who perhaps had someone died a few years ago. And they find it easier to talk about people who want to talk about the then perhaps, to introduce the conversation with people who are a little bit uncomfortable that maybe they’re too sad or to in need of help or something. They just want to talk about the person and how it was. And, you know, sometimes people come because they’ve had an experience. It’s been quite demanding on them. Very various reasons. One time I had a minister, who just obviously sees a lot of people in the course of her work and she does Just wanted to come into a conversation like that.

Jess Brady
And why are we? This is such a big question, please solve this huge societal problem and need no pressure. But I I am fascinated in an expert opinion, you know, why do you think now after everything that we’ve been through? Why are we still so extremely uncomfortable talking about this topic? Well,

Annie Bolitho
firstly, it’s human. In general, we kind of prefer beginnings to endings, they’re more exciting. There, they’ve got promise we haven’t explored, you know, it’s like, I was at a christening yesterday. And honestly, those babies that were three families, and each baby was just a world of possibility. You know, whereas endings have a lot more demands on them. Often, even if you’re just finishing approaching, lots, people just can’t be here to wrap up. And I think the same goes for end of life, you know, it’s this more demand. You know, often people are very vulnerable. Relationships are sensitive. And of course, the fact that nobody’s thought about it often makes it a really difficult, I don’t know, often, but it can make it a difficult experience. So I think the reluctance has a kind of basic human dimension. And I think that’s obviously compounded in our society by the fact that we’re very youth focused, we place incredible amount of faith in medical technology, and we want medical technology to keep people alive. And that’s a dilemma for clinicians as well. How did they talk about death? I don’t think that comes easily to many clinicians. Yeah, it adds up to quite a closed shop doesn’t.

Jess Brady
And it really sets us all up for a really sad, emotional. I mean, it would be sad, and it’s sad and emotional anyway. But I feel that the inability to talk about something that is inevitable for everyone around us, it’s so unhelpful. And it’s

Annie Bolitho
so many more reasons why we don’t talk about death.

Jess Brady
Tell me I need all of them, please.

Annie Bolitho
I think one very big reason is that we’re very dualistic. And I think that’s particularly a Western first world thing. Good, Bad success, failure, life, death. It’s kind of like that, put it to poles, whereas, in fact, nobody is actually dead until they’re dead people are alive the whole time. So I think that’s one really important thing to have in mind that even if someone’s very ill, it’s life and to try and always framed things around death, in the context of life. So a friend of mine who needs some help, contacted me recently and the subject in the email is death, your favorite thing?

I got back to her. And I said, can I just clarify? Life is my favorite thing. And death is part of that, you know, it’s like, so I think that kind of aspects. Another reason why it’s hard for us to be effective in the space. The other thing is, and perhaps that is because we put so much emphasis on emotion and getting it right emotionally and feeling good. And we often want to have one insurrection, bring everything together. We want to have one perfect, successful interaction that solves this sadness that you’re feeling because of your circumstance. Or we want to be able to talk to parents and say, there’s this thing coming up. We need to talk about but it has to all happen in this neat little package. And that’s not how we communicate about other things, we communicate in little steps. And we kind of gradually get to a point where we can talk a bit more. So I really encourage people not to be thinking in this kind of one big conversation way. Much more like, just touching on it lightly. You know, I saw this movie, and this happened. But it really made me think of that all you need to say,

Jess Brady
I’m having a brain explosion.

Annie Bolitho
And then, you know, you might say, a couple of months ago, we’re talking about that movie, and I saw a subsequently I’m thinking, what about you? And then you know, a bit further down, maybe that person’s going to say to you, I saw a movie, and I’m thinking, it’s a much more gentle dialogue, than here I come with the right way to talk to you about

Jess Brady
this, that is such a powerful point. Because I think that as financial advisors, what we say to people in terms of how to do this, and it’s okay, if you’ve done this before, it almost becomes this really formal, really stuffy, getting everyone together around a round table. You know, there’s this weird vibe, and it’s almost this, you know, pre thought through agenda, or you have, you know, the lawyer in and it becomes very serious very fast. And that is very confronting for a lot of people and too much too fast. And I think you’re 100%, right. And I’m giggling because I am always reflecting on what do I do? And how have I done this, and I think you’ll appreciate this small story. Many years ago, I became an organ donor, I don’t know whether you have to opt out. But back then you had to opt in. And so I sent my good friends and my family, a text and I said, Hello, this is just a small message, in case anything bad happens to me while I’m still okay, I want you to know that I want my organs to be donated. And I’m putting this out as a group text because I won’t, I don’t want anyone to fight with each other. This is what I want. Anyway, one of my beautiful girlfriends who was the executive mobile, she wrote back within 10 seconds, and she wrote eyebags your button. And it was just this brilliant way to get started this great group chat about organ donation, which she completely lightened the mood and, you know, took the heat out of what can be a really sort of difficult conversation. And just, I think about, you know, this is more than 10 years ago, I think about it now, and I giggle. And it’s exactly what you’re saying sort of just adding those layers to the conversations that get built over time.

Annie Bolitho
And you know, at the same time, in your field, there’s a great pressure on time, people are really needing to be effective in how they manage their time and make that work flow, you know, and sometimes introducing this topic, you know, in a way, it’s easier to go okay, we’ll have the formal meeting, it will take so much time, and then a little bit. But, of course, one of your previous guests talked about how there are people in your field, who are in it, for relationships, and a whole lot of things that aren’t just making a fortune. And you know, if your values are such that you really do want to help people have their full lives to the maximum. I think it’s wonderful if you can take a more layered approach just by introducing her topic and then bit later on a bit more and then doing a more formal kind of meeting to Great suggestion about humor. There just can’t be enough of that really,

Jess Brady
completely agree she’ll be happy to happy to hear that I’ve put that month. By the way, I recognize that that part of the body is not one that gets donated and she does too but it was just such a good story. So I’m interested in understanding you know, someone who really specializes in this space and knowing that you’ve done this born out of a really sad set of circumstances, how has this? Has this area of expertise help you live differently? And if so, how

Annie Bolitho
are Look, I’m just going to read to you out of my book, because I have a little bit, which says, In the face of the reality of death and loss, life feels precious, and rich, being in touch with the finite nature of life creates a sense of opportunity, even though it is very sad, knowing about different approaches today. And having conversations ahead of time, can make a real difference. So I think, I certainly feel my life spirit and rich by having the privilege of being in contact with people who have had really unfortunate diagnoses, and are kind of gradually working through that as time goes on. And yeah, I really love the fact that I am able to make a small difference. And obviously, it’s something where you wouldn’t want to make anything more than a small difference, because people are doing that journey themselves, we can only do that journey ourselves. So it’s just that thing of, if I’m able to touch in in some way, even like in this conversation with you. It’s just lovely to know, I can make a small difference. I’m

Jess Brady
gonna go off script here, because I sent you a few questions. But if you’ve listened to my podcasts, you know that they go anywhere. Given that we’re talking about some of the more practical components to death, do you have any thoughts or ideas on what could be helpful things to say? I’ll tell you why I’m asking this. We talked about this before we started today’s conversation, my father passed away when I was very little, and I’m very comfortable talking about it. And it’s the impact that it’s had on me and my family. But I don’t bring it up very much. Because it makes all the rest of the people around me really uncomfortable. And one of the things that they will people often say to me when they learn about it, is I’m sorry. And I have caught myself saying I’m sorry. Well, despite the fact that when people say it to me, I find it quite odd, because I know that they had nothing to do with it. But I understand their intention is to say, I feel for you or what whatever. But are there better things that we could be saying to someone who discloses to us that they’ve been diagnosed with something or if a partner or a close person in someone’s life has passed away? What are some things that you think we should be thinking about saying?

Annie Bolitho
Look, it’s interesting that you say that people respond to you that way, even though your father passed away a very long time ago, and you’ve lived your whole life, I suppose. In a way it’s a bit of a spontaneous reaction to say, I’m sorry. But ya know, at the same time, like you say, I think that does come from a well intentioned place and just responding thanks, thank you is quite enough. But, look, I think people are so so different. On to, you know, what can be a welcome embrace, through talking more can equally be a really unwelcome intrusion. So it’s something where it is worth kind of stepping back and bearing in mind who the person is how they normally react, and not going in there with a formula. And I wanted things that I’ve noticed is that people’s discomfort is often because they don’t know what’s going to come next. And I think if you are going to talk to someone, make sure that the context is a good context. You know, don’t do it in a workplace setting where the person’s got to make some decisions in the next half hour or something. That’s the wrong context to be talking to a person who’s had something happen and if You start a conversation, be willing to just be there to listen. And I think people can pick that up very quickly, if you’re just kind of coming in with something that feels like a good thing to say, or whether you’re actually there with. And you’re going to wait and see how they respond. And I suppose that’s one thing I would definitely say. And we see it in death cafes, I see it all the time, that people are so uncomfortable with silence, it’s so much easier to just rush along, because you don’t know what’s coming next. But if you can actually just wait, that can be so helpful, because you can just settle into yourself and be in a better space to listen to whatever it is that person might say.

Jess Brady
You’re so right. And it’s so hard, because you want to take the uncomfortableness away. And you think by talking, it will fix all of the things. And of course, in fact, it

Annie Bolitho
doesn’t. And you know, that kind of silence actually does require practice, maybe that’s one of the really good things about death cafes, that people get the opportunity to sit in silence and just be together, knowing that shit happens. And we can all practice it all the time. Just, you know, when we’re ready to rush on because we feel uncomfortable. Just taking a step back instead.

Jess Brady
Yeah, I think that’s a good lesson. Particularly I think, you know, society that has this toxic positivity, you know, everything has a silver lining, everything’s gonna be okay. You can hustle your way out of every problem. It’s like, no, actually, some things are really awful, and some really sad. And it’s okay to not be okay. And we also need to be louder about that for helping people sit with whatever they’ve got going on, and not trying to pull them out of something.

Annie Bolitho
Yes, and perhaps, you know, being willing for that, to actually hang around for quite a while. The woman who has been a great ally of mine, has recently put out on social media, how significant her illness is. Many of us probably didn’t even know that she was ill. Right. And, honestly, just to see people’s responses on the Instagram thread was fascinating in itself, and I notice that the whole weekend, I’ve just had this woman on my mind, I just feel so sad. And so much like, I would love to do something, but there’s nothing that I can do other than some advocacy. So, yeah, I think that willingness to let other people’s difficult experiences affect one and not be part of what has moved for a weekend is probably something we don’t do enough of.

Jess Brady
And I think, you know, even the fact that that person has touched you so that you felt like that is legacy and is really beautiful in a weird, odd way. It’s a really lovely thing that that person is cared about by that community. And, yeah, I think we just for me, personally, I know that I can do a better job in getting out of the I grew up in a in a, in a house where we were very silver lining, and it’s very good to a point and then it’s very destructive beyond that. Interesting. So I would love to know, given that you speak to people that at this point in their life, or they’re often things that people will say to you that they regretted or choices that they didn’t make that they wish they had, you know were there any learnings or similar themes that people talk to you about in terms of mistakes or missed opportunities?

Annie Bolitho
No, very rarely, I think. Because what I have is kind of a bit left field, it’s not there appears. It’s also for people who really want to take charge of their circumstances, they’re often people who have taken charge in the past as well. And rather than talking about missed opportunities, I think a lot of people want to express their gratitude, and be very, very involved with the wonderful life that they’ve had. So I think that makes my work even more enriching that I can know that if I join those people, in not complaining, not kind of begging someone some way to help me through, but just being with how life is at the moment, hopefully, when I come to the point they’re at, I’ll also be able to demonstrate that level of life.

Jess Brady
That is fascinating. You know, I feel like I’m learning and leaning into a lot of my own personal stories. But I went to a funeral a little while ago, a family member’s funeral, and the family member was extremely religious. And I remember walking out of the funeral and thinking, that could have just been a mess, it really didn’t have anything. Beyond a few moments of personalization, it really felt to me like a mass. And I was so sad for the missed opportunity of what it could have been in terms of the celebration of the uniqueness of that person. And not to say that religion can’t form and shouldn’t form a part of that, obviously, everyone’s got their own beliefs. But sure, I was sad about the funeral. But I was more sad. And actually, I then became quite grumpy. Because I thought, there’s very few opportunities for us to really pause and reflect and celebrate all of the beauty that is that personal was that person and it made me really reflect on my own. So I’m 34. And I’ve pretty well planned my funeral. Just very loud, but you in case my will goes missing the cheapest coffin there ever was, and the most expensive catering, and I want everyone to have a really bloody great time.

Annie Bolitho
Everyone knows now worldwide, watch your watch.

Jess Brady
But it did make me really think, gosh, if I have to leave this to other people who are not in a good headspace, that’s really a big, overwhelming. And there’s a ton, often for situations that are unplanned. You know, when it’s not a long process, there’s a time thing at play as well.

Annie Bolitho
I think there’s a time thing at play, threw out, everything we’re talking about is a time thing. And that time thing is your life. And really, you can say that these are things that can wait or you’ll think about them some time. And look, if you are someone who’s a person of faith with a strong relationship with the church, obviously, they take care of things from start to finish. And it’ll be very traditional. And there won’t be some opportunities, but there’ll be others. However, nowadays, it’s just such a world of choice. Really, you may as well choose your funeral as well. You choose your computers, any thing that’s got a comparable price tag on urge you make a choice. You don’t just say oh, I’ll have that because someone’s offering me do costings.

Jess Brady
It’s true. So can we talk about some of the things that you’ve seen that are unusual, but perhaps just because people haven’t thought about them? And perhaps would think, Oh, that’s a brilliant idea.

Annie Bolitho
So I said I’m a funeral celebrant organized funerals. And one of the areas I specialize in is helping with funerals, where there are young children involved. And for me, that’s mainly been people Where grandparents has died, okay? Nowadays, that’s a very common thing that grandparent grandchildren relationships are very close. And it’s huge when a grandparent dies. And during lockdown, I did a funeral for a family. And this girl of like 12 years old, gave a really powerful little eulogy. And people would just go watch, that wouldn’t have the confidence, you couldn’t ask a kid to do that, that’d be too upset. But she really, really took that role. And that was because I led her to understand that she do it well, and that people would appreciate it, and that her grandma would. And, you know, one of the things we did was a funeral where they had the coffin there. And in the early part of the funeral, people were having a look at this woman and just saying goodbye. And we spent some time with her grandma together, and chatted about it afterwards. And I just thought, what a gift, you know, this girl is gonna be so well said. So that’s an area where I like to realize the most potential possible because I think if you have good experiences when you’re young, you’re not going to have problems later. Some things people do people to the most amazing staff, you know, one woman, very family oriented, learn that it’s possible to do carbon investments, because obviously, if you’re cremated, there’s a very high carbon cost. And so there are ways obviously to offset that. And I talk about that in my book, you can people buy carbon offsets all the time, in their businesses, and in their personal lives anyway. You hardly have to buy any carbon to offset it just go to a company that does that. Pay out 1000 bucks, and you’ve offset that. Anyway, she was more interested in scale. And she and her family organized with the company to plant like, I don’t know, like 300 trees or something like that. Wow. So all these carbon offset companies have places where trees are going in, they took up space there. They’re all went out as a family, and they just planted so many trees. And that was kind of like their day with their mum. I thought that was fabulous. He

Jess Brady
is fabulous. so fabulous. I’m going to read your book. I’m ashamed to tell you that I haven’t read your book. But I’ve only learned about your very recently. So I’m using that as my excuse. But I did read and I don’t know whether you’ll like or hate this, but I read on death and dying a few years ago, by Elisabeth Kubler Ross. Is that right? A mentor suggested that I read it because he said the day is coming where you need to have this chat. And I am extremely grateful that he told me to read it because it did. It was fascinating and confronting at the same time, but I’m adding your book to my list. So

Annie Bolitho
just on that Elisabeth Kubler Ross had four stages of grieving. And in more recent times, people have kind of felt that four is a bit limited, that it closes a package, and that that package actually is forever, really open. And so when I titled my book death, a love project. The idea of the love project is that fifth stage where you never let go of the person, you just keep doing stuff that keeps them alive in the most positive way that nurtures you, you know, if that person loved stars, you can keep on making stars your thing all the years to come and invoking that person. And I think that’s something we don’t think about enough if we thought about that fifth stage more about how we live, when someone who’s really important or has died, it’s very helpful. There’s a great book that I’m recommending to you now, it’s on my Instagram feed. And it’s what to do when I’m gone.

Jess Brady
I saw this on Instagram, Yes,

Annie Bolitho
mother and daughter, and basically this mother who’s still alive, is telling her daughter, what to do from day one to day 1000. You know, like, day seven, bury me. Yeah. And then, you know, if you’re ever having a bad day, look in the mirror, remember how I saw you, you are beautiful, you know, those kind of things. We need to be thinking of that journey. Because handling that journey, knowing we’ll handle that journey, certainly will make it easier to contemplate that that journey is inevitable.

Jess Brady
And he I could talk to you about this for many more hours. But I’m cognizant of the time because I think this needs to be the start of a conversation. How can people go and learn more about you, your Instagram, your book? How can people best find you.

Annie Bolitho
So I’m on Instagram and a Monet, and I’ve got a website, any the LIFO, which comes up at the top of a Google search. And I think that’s enough. But I really would encourage people to buy my book. It’s been read by nearly 1000 people, and the majority of them get back to me and just say, it was helpful. And it can help you if you’re just a bit nervous. Or if you’re actually looking at a circumstance that’s arising. Just have a little read of it. Make death a love project, rather than a fear subject.

Jess Brady
I think we can all benefit from reading something that helps us normalize this very important topic. Now, before we round out today’s conversation, I sent you a few rapid fire questions. Are you okay to cover them? Let’s do it. So, my question to you firstly is, especially given all of the things we’ve been talking about today, what do you do to look after your mental health?

Annie Bolitho
I speak to people who are like you warm, excited by life, and looking to the future.

Jess Brady
Thank you. That’s lovely response. Is there a piece of advice that you would have given your younger self?

Annie Bolitho
Oh, man, it’s okay. You’re doing your best.

Jess Brady
Oh, it’s beautiful. Do you have anything that’s big? That is on your bucket list?

Annie Bolitho
Look up. I’d like to travel again. That’s all I want to do. And I’m going to Singapore, on my bucket list immediately.

Jess Brady
Lovely. And do you like that? I talk about bucket lists every week because I like to talk about making sure people do the big things that are important to them while

Annie Bolitho
they’re able to enjoy. Yes.

Jess Brady
No. I’d imagine that the book for my fake book club is your book. It is wonderful. I am adding that on there. I have literally written that down. Annie, thank you so much for being this week’s podcast guest I have been challenged and really buoyed by the important conversations that you’re having. So a huge, huge thank you from the ex my community.

Annie Bolitho
Jess I love talking to you and I was quite honest when I said talking with somebody like us great for my mental health.

Jess Brady
Thank you, Annie.