Delivering Advice Differently #2 – Transcript

Fraser Jack
Hello, and welcome to this topic series on delivering advice differently. My name is Fraser Jack. And in this podcast episode number two of five, we cover separating a strategy from product from a sales based industry to professional advice as a product, and how the stakeholders or all of the stakeholders for the regulators, to advisors and clients are benefiting from this approach. Sitting back and appreciating how far we’ve come was really rewarding and worth highlighting. So put your feet up and enjoy this episode. Thanks for joining me again, Ben.

Ben Marshan
Thanks, Fraser feels like forever since we last spoke

Fraser Jack
of ego it was it was a whole episode ago. Now where yeah, in this particular episode, we’re talking about, you know, separating strategy from product. And and I guess that really starts with the concept of creating an advice process that is consuming it.

Ben Marshan
Yeah, absolutely. And there’s a lot of discussion going on at the moment about the outcomes of financial advice rather than the inputs into financial advice. And so when you look at the advice process and what you’re trying to do with a client, you’re trying to help them understand their goals and objectives, you’re trying to help them understand their financial position, you’re trying to help them understand how they can put strategies in place to meet their goals and objectives and improve their financial position and get the right kind of outcomes for their life. When you talk to members, when you talk to financial planners, what they’ll consistently say is 90% of what they do, is helping clients go through that process, how they define their goals, how they define their objectives, how they trade off between them, how they create strategies to help them achieve them, the very last 10%. And often it’s less than that is which actual products do we use to implement those strategies so that the clients can achieve their goals and objectives. And so from that perspective, there’s a real separation of the the financial planning service that the client that the financial planner is providing, there is a real separation of the strategies that help the client achieve their goals and objectives. And a real separation of the products that are used, ultimately, it’s just a tool or mechanism for implementing those strategies.

Fraser Jack
He had certainly feels like the ship sort of turned over over time from being, you know, product sales to, as you mentioned, in the previous episode, you know, getting into the the advice as a product, but it’s sort of, you know, it’s turned to that strategy and understanding and, and, you know, all those other things around the process of discovery and relationship and everything around that. But, you know, obviously, with the outcomes based that you mentioned earlier, that sort of that’s really around the idea that none of this actually happens if clients don’t engage and be part of this and then put these strategies and therefore some products in place to make this actually happen. Yeah, that’s

Ben Marshan
right. And we were you know, we were talking about the tension between the services that a professional financial planner provides to their clients and the laws and regulations that licensees kind of have to force us into complying with from from from their side of things and the tension that that creates. It’s a tension that that FPA members have been trying to deal with and straddle for for many, many years. And I think you you saw a lot of them, set up their own licensees or move to licensees who had a much bigger focus on on the client a much bigger focus on things like goals based advice and an outcomes based advice services rather than selling financial products and and that was a natural place for professional financial planners who believed in this, the client is the center of what I’m doing, not the products I’m selling natural naturally gravitated towards.

Fraser Jack
Yeah, it certainly makes sense to me. If I’m, if I put my head on, just think of maybe how the regulator’s would think about that, too, that if you’re putting the client first year a lot, you’re in a lot better position to be, you know, doing what’s right for the regulators if you’re starting with the client, rather than starting with the product. But what I wanted to get into is with strategy, a lot of the times strategy then requires education and explanation. And, and that’s the part of the end, you mentioned that, you know, the the advice process in the future will look very different. But that’s the sort of part that we really want to try and capture, as part of the advice process or capture as the product that is financial advice, that explanation of how things work, that explanation of the strategy. And we’ll get to understanding a bit later in the series. But that then coming along for the journey and being able to say no, I get that I understand that, or I’ve learned that or I’ve increased my knowledge around that strategy. So now I know I’m happy to proceed with it.

Ben Marshan
Yeah, and I think the challenge for most planners is that’s what they do with the client and in front of the client, and they co create their advice. They co create the education, they co create the the strategy recommendations with the client. And they’ll spend a lot of time doing that and spend a lot of time making sure the client understands. But traditionally, we haven’t really recorded that part of the process, we might record file notes, and we say we educated the client and the client understood, but we don’t go into a lot of the detail. And we don’t, we generally don’t provide that to the client. As part of the the toolkit of information that we give to the client at the other end, we might leave them with factsheets or we might send them web links about salary sacrifice, or about how superannuation works or about how life insurance works. But what we don’t usually provide is a recording of that education process. And I think that’s a missed opportunity. And something that, that financial planners should, should definitely stop thinking about. And, you know, this is where, you know, the concept of recording meetings starts to take on a whole different level. They at recording the audio, but but probably more recording video, whether it’s live in person or using zoom or Microsoft Teams, or whatever technology you’re using, to to virtually meet with your clients recording those and then providing a copy of that to the client. You don’t need file notes. If you’re doing that. You may not need a statement of advice, a separate statement advice if you’re doing that,

Fraser Jack
yeah, separate document. Now, it’s fair to say that most people are I reckon 100% of people who are listening to this podcast would understand how to perform online, online meetings or online video and have a webcam attached and a microphone or some description setup to their, their system.

Ben Marshan
It has become the norm during COVID.

Fraser Jack
Yeah, I really liked the way you sort of mentioned with regards to that one way recording in an SOA that the SOA has traditionally just been here is what I recommend you do here is the strategy, then here is how it works. It’s kind of like a one way broadcast, as opposed to the two way conversation. I’m not saying that planners don’t have a two way conversation. I’m just saying that the actual advice process and documentation has been set up about a one way broadcast versus a two way a two way capturing of the conversation. Yeah, that’s

Ben Marshan
right. And again, it’s outcome of the way that we document the statement of advice is on paper. And therefore you can’t reflect that live engaging conversation in that document. And so a couple of years ago, the FPA released the future of the SOA report. And we start to encourage our members to deliver advice digitally where you can start to put these components you can if you record the meeting, because you are doing virtual meetings or even if you’re sitting in the office and you record with the client, you can actually put that into the the financial plan that you provide to the client. And if clients can look back at the conversation they had, yeah, I remember having that conversation, or as if they read it on a page. They don’t necessarily have that same recall.

Fraser Jack
And you know, obviously you mentioned technology being a great lead into that. I want to sort of mentioned that when there’s sort of two to three reasons why most of us should be embracing Technology, obviously, you know that the top two efficiencies and effectiveness of the process are the ones and then there’s the third one that you and I subscribe to, which is just we like geeking out about it and feel makes us feel good inside to be playing with new technology. But if we, if we focus on the efficiencies and effectiveness piece, obviously we’re looking at, you know, using technology in a way that’s efficient and effective within the process. I just want to also cover off on the concept of what you’re talking about with recording meetings, does that require a huge amount of it of, of technology products that we don’t already have?

Ben Marshan
Generally, no, I mean, most of us are set up with the camera on our laptops or, or a camera with our computer, or we buy a cheap Logitech or whatever brand camera that we attach to our computer. Most of us have have headphones or earphones that have microphones attached to them, or we buy a separate, you can buy a separate microphone if you need something better. And so effectively, we’ve got the technology that we’re using anyway, in to record the meetings that we’re having with our clients, all you need to do is ask their permission to record it, and then find a secure way to to provide that back to them. So they’ve got a copy of it. If they want to go back and have a listen or, or have a look at what was being discussed. So it’s fairly simple. And I think we’re all again, getting back to the COVID issue. We’re all we’re all kind of used to doing it because we’ve been operating this way for large parts of the last two to three years.

Fraser Jack
Yep, fantastic. So anything that can go produce an online meeting, the ability to share screen, the ability to record and the the ability to save the file and send it through to the client. Brilliant. Thank you so much, Ben for being part of this particular episode, we were sort of talking about strategy and the versus product, but I look forward to chatting to you in the next episode where we get stuck into visuals and finding ways to engage the client. Hey, Fraser, it’s

Unknown Speaker
good to be here today.

Fraser Jack
Welcome to this episode two and our five part series in this particular episode, we’re talking about strategy and product and specifically separating the two and making them completely different parts of the process, essentially, for the clients purpose. Welcome back, Prashant. Michelle. Prashant, tell us about your advice process and how you separate strategy from product conversations.

Phrashant Nagarajan
So in terms of our process, because we have 100%, online service delivery, we start off with a sort of a trial face, this is where, you know, the your prospect at that stage engages with you three times in short bursts meetings over a 21 day period or once every week. And in that journey, you’re discovering a personal financial, and then you’re you’re sort of proposing a solution of how you’re going to tackle this. And quite often we have a our belief is that we can’t tackle a person’s financial solution in in one go. It we usually say we’re going to do this, but we’re going to do this over a six to 12 month period. So we sort of stretch it. So we’re sort of making sure we solving one thing at a time in. So the first step once they become a paid member, as we call them, once they become a paid client, then the first thing we start doing is the co creation of the strategy. So in that first month, we start with purely discussing the financial modeling elements, products, not even in that picture, nothing. It’s just more you walked in, you said you want these 10 things, I found three different ways of our teams found three different ways to do this one’s financially awesome, but will come at the back of a lot of sacrifices. And one’s not that financially awesome. But you know, you’ll, but it’ll still work. So us being able to come up with the the three routes the fastest, quickest and the easiest, you know, kind of routes, and then presenting that to them. I is the first part of the thing of the journey, we usually find that it’s one iteration, everyone’s really clear with what they’re after. And they interestingly, they pick the non financially savvy route, you know, they actually usually pick the middle or the more happier journey kind of thing. Occasionally it goes to a second iteration. But we were happy to spend more time in this part. Because this creates the architecture of what we’re about to do. So we’d rather get the architecture right before we start building anything. So that’s the first part of the journey. And then as we go into subsequent months, we start sorting out each part of the the advice and the products and everything that fits that architecture. So if it’s super ever going to solve that problem, it’s super is sort of like one room in this architecture. So we’re going to make sure it fits that exactly to what what the client wanted.

Fraser Jack
Yeah, fantastic. So, as you mentioned, short burst, or as what some people would call scale advice, because you’re scaling it down into intersections and really love the concept of a six to 12 month plan, you know, of putting things in place. And obviously, having paid members and people that are on a, let’s say, retainer, is retainer model, the best way of doing that

Phrashant Nagarajan
a subscription model? Yeah, yeah, that’s, that’s how we’re doing.

Michelle Bannister
And what I really like about push outs approach here is just the integrity in the process, like, you know, you’re starting with the getting to know the client, their values, their needs, their goals, then you’re moving into the strategy, and then product comes after that. And I think that’s really, it’s like a skeleton, you know, you get the skeleton, right, and then everything else hangs off that,

Fraser Jack
you know, obviously, in this process, if, if I’m, if I’m looking at that, from the outside, and I’m thinking, There’s got to be some sort of priority prioritization process, as in, you know, if you can do scaled, But bit by a bit piecemeal advice, you’ve got to then say to the client, you know, we would prioritize this one, how do you give them an opportunity to to prioritize as well?

Phrashant Nagarajan
Yep, definitely, definitely. So, you know, there’s always going to be, you know, for example, if they walk in with 10, things I want, and there’s always going to be nice to have in must haves, you know, and it’s about, you know, trying to take away from the bottom up rather than top down. And then again, giving them the choice, you know, we ideally, every time we tried to model it, we tried to model everything, and everyone wants their cake and eat it too. So it’s quite normal. But again, giving them that visual, and especially this, this blueprint, or this modeling stage, you know, we call it the blueprint stage, this stage is where we give them the choice to take things out, we prioritize it, they know what their priorities, but when they visually see it, and they’d make those choices as a as a couple, or as an individual, they buying into that commitment. You know, there’s a behavioral element to advice which, you know, we tend to miss, but when they commit to saying, That’s okay, I’ll wait on that. I think the chance of a successful outcome for them as much higher,

Fraser Jack
yes, buying into the strategy is obviously a huge piece of theirs. And you mentioned you give them three options, which is grammar. Now, Michelle, this is obviously when I one business one on one, right, you know, give people three options, and, and they will choose the middle one, but what are your thoughts on with regards to this concept of being able to give three options and but then also allowing him to take those options and unpack them?

Michelle Bannister
I think that’s really important. I mean, the competing priorities and goals is, is a difficult thing to, you know, to work through. And you know, it’s like the concept of the jar with you put your big rocks in first, and you work out the things that are most important, and then fill it with a smaller and smaller things. And, you know, I think being able to give people a number of options and work through those, I think is really an important approach.

Fraser Jack
Yeah, Michelle, these these, the strategy, essentially, is the the framework that everything works upon after that. Yeah,

Michelle Bannister
absolutely. And part of it is working out, you know, how much can you squeeze out of that, you know, how many rocks? Can you fit in the jar? Once you can really optimize strategy? Well, you know, you can fit more rocks in the jar for your client.

Fraser Jack
Yep, absolutely. And obviously, strategy is the part that clients need to be need to understand in today’s world, we need to make sure they’ve got, you know, informed consent being the words, but, you know, tell us about how percent you work through the strategy with a client. And then, you know, allow them to, as you said before, co create the the end strategy.

Phrashant Nagarajan
Yeah. So when we sort of do the modeling, and again, it comes down to the tool that we use, and the advisors familiarity and comfort around doing this. So we so the tool we use, we don’t shy away from showing it to the to apply, we just, you know, share screen, we say this is what we you know, what we’ve come down to come down to sorry. And these are the three options. Now, you know, we spend probably 15 to 20 minutes explaining these things. And then we say, What would you like to take off? What would you like to change in answer? And then when they say, actually, you know what, let’s not do that. Or how about instead of putting $1,000 a month into this investment, how about cutting it back to 500? And instead of saying, Okay, I’ll go back and come back to you tomorrow, I’ll be able to, you know, we tend to do it straight away. You know, we sort of take that mystique of, you know, we try to make it simple, is it’s almost like, you know, we sometimes it’s like, Oh, if it’s so simple, why am I paying you so much, you know, but we try to take that away. So right now, this is simple, you know, take it away, we give them the answer straightaway, and then they go, okay, and then that it’s sort of like build a bag kind of thing, you know, at that point, and that’s usually the second half of the meeting. They keep trying back and forth. And they all then come to terms that great does this actually, you know, is exciting. Let’s do that. That’s how we do it

Michelle Bannister
separately. Do you find that customers respond in that process,

Phrashant Nagarajan
that the blueprint stage, the modeling stage is probably the height, the peak in our customer experience journey, it’s that we start, it’s almost like we start with a high note. And it’s hard for us to finish in that high in after that 12 month period. But now we’ve sort of find a way to finish that four month period and that high note, but we finding the highest amount of client engagement, because we take feedbacks in the regular frequency, and and the, the, you know, the excitement they bring, it’s so hard to find it in any other pieces of the journey. For us, it’s interesting, what we find,

Fraser Jack
that’s really cool. I want to try and throw to the concept that at some, some advisors would have a fear of, you know, modeling software with a client, just through some of the complexities, obviously, around maybe the tools that he they using, but what are your thoughts on, you know, the leaning into actually learning the software and being able to use it, use it with the client.

Phrashant Nagarajan
For us, it’s very important. So about Daniel line invested, not a lot of time, but reasonable amount of time, understanding the tool. And of course, the easier it is the better, you know, who have a built in. But it’s almost like if you want to be a gynecologist, and you don’t know how to operate, and ultrasound is your domain, you’ve got to invest time on the tools of your trade. Yes, there’s all these other people behind the scene to make it better or can do it for you. But I think that this part was too critical for us not to sort of get our hands on, shall we have paraplanning, and all the others that find unit and sort of deliver a better, more smooth and outcome post meeting. But this part was very important. And I think technology is like any relationship, the more time you spend, the better it gets.

Fraser Jack
Yeah, and Michelle, obviously, having a tool that’s easy to use, cuts down on the amount of staff and obviously increases the efficiency in the process.

Michelle Bannister
Yeah, absolutely. And I mean, I think you’ve touched on a really good point, it can be quite scary for advisors, where you know, they want to engage the clients in that process. But it’s a bit scary, putting yourself on the spot and making it live. How we’ve seen advisors have typically done that is they start familiarizing themselves with software. And then they’ll run a couple of scenarios. So they might start with a base case, do nothing, get no advice, this is what your you know, your net worth would be at the end, then they model a couple of scenarios. And those things that they’ve worked through and they feel confident in, then they might anticipate a couple of what if questions a customer would have. And then in the meeting, if they’ve already got a basis that they’ve prepared, they know really well. And then that’s kind of the icing on the cake.

Fraser Jack
So you’re right, Michelle, if you have a couple of scenarios where you think somebody might, in this situation might be thinking this, and therefore we’re gonna we’re going to add to that prior to you can actually introduce the conversation if they don’t, if they don’t bring it up, you say some people often think this. And so we then we go into that, and we show them that how that works. And it gives them more of an understanding that certainly appears that you know, your way around the software a little bit better than then you may, you know, have the competence and

Michelle Bannister
you can anticipate their needs. They’ve raised something at a previous question. previous meeting, that was a question or an idea. So, yeah, attentive to their needs. Yep.

Phrashant Nagarajan
And I also find that as advisors, we tend to underestimate our ability to learn technology, I think we’ve, to me, when compared with a lot of other professions, we’ve adopted this much better than so many other professions. And I think I think we, you know, I think we’re doing a great job at this, I think we’ll adapt very quickly, in learning these things.

Fraser Jack
Yeah, that person, you sort of mentioned the the ongoing compensation, because it’s not just about providing the advice upfront, it’s, you know, your model lends itself to, you know, having shorter meetings, but more regularly with your members. And obviously, tracking towards their, their outcomes, and, you know, changing the scenarios all the time because, you know, people have moved from where they were three months ago to, you know, where they are now. Tell us about how you use software in that space to be able to help your clients, you know, track towards where they’re going, but also recognize how well they’ve done in the past.

Phrashant Nagarajan
Sure. So, in terms of the progress, what we find is, we usually start with five key dimensions to start measuring the member at the start of the journey. So you know, like in terms of how the tracking on an income perspective, that perspective savings, we just have five measurable, quantifiable, you know, metrics, we show them where they are, and then at the end of the 12 months, we show them with, you know, how the how the dollars have changed, you know, that’s pretty much a before and after, have you started at red mud now via red, green, that sort of thing. But where the strategy and everything that we do between that fall months, is it starts giving us a clear indication of how the dollar will start turning. So, you know, for example, by saving this much, you know, when we do the modeling, we know how to ration the assets, we know how to ration the cash flow to get to that in, in shifting the doll. So, we always take a before and after, at different points. And internally, we do that at least three times a year internally, but the client only sees it twice a year start and the end.

Fraser Jack
Yeah, there’s certainly saying I think you, Michelle, you attest to this, you know, if you can’t measure it, you can’t manage it. How important is measuring these types of things in the advice process

Michelle Bannister
super important, the background to process improvement, particularly if you look at Lean Six Sigma, you, you know, first you take a baseline and measure where are you now? Then you make your changes? And you come back and measure it again to it’s absolutely that if you can’t measure it, you can’t manage it?

Fraser Jack
Yep. Prashant, I wanted to quickly ask you around, you know, we talked about previous, you know, occupations and professions, and certainly doctors are a great one to model in advice process of, you know, the the concept of, you know, the doctors, you go in you, you give them all the information, they do tests, they run diagnostics, you know, they then create a, you know, we’ll look at treatment plans, which we could formally talk about as strategies before they talk about medication or product. How do you how do you have a conversation around, you know, what you what you’re doing, and how it relates to a sort of a medical process?

Phrashant Nagarajan
Absolutely. So, you know, so we, interestingly, about two years ago, we had this opportunity to sit sit with a couple of doctors, and because what, to me, they have so much more variables to deal with, when they look at a patient, there’s 100 million things that could be wrong with this person, how they quickly arrive at the problem point, and how they sort of solve, it was amazing. And I kept probing them in terms of how they do it and things like that, and it just comes down to, you know, it’s basically they try to boil it down to what they think is wrong, you know, that usually comes with a little bit of experience, but then they are the tests to validate it, you know, so it’s not like, the tests are not there to find what’s wrong with you, the tests are there to validate what they think is wrong with you, you know, and it’s the usually the opposite of what we think the tests are for. But then after that they go with once it’s validated, then they look at a potential treatment plan, which is customized to your body, I guess, you know, so and I think the way we call this process, that first process, where they test you to find a validate, it’s called differential diagnosis, that’s how they call it is those three, you know, they and and we usually do that we, when we finish that onboarding journey, we decide on what’s potentially wrong with them, or what potentially stopping them from achieving this goal. And we incorporate that into the modeling, you know, to start as if we change this one behavior, how does everything change into the future, and showing the client the future self, you know, the future self is is very powerful. And this pointing and boiling it down to that one or two behaviors that could change it from doing nothing versus becoming, you know, having a couple of million dollars to show for and a happy life? You know, it’s it’s priceless? Yeah. So that’s how we’ve incorporated that into the process.

Fraser Jack
I just love the way they use the word kept probing the doctors, it was until I gave you the information you needed. But but it’s a really good point, isn’t it? Because sometimes it’s behaviors that make a difference to the treatment plan, you know, their their current behaviors, not necessarily financial products. And I think that when you were talking or focusing on strategies, and modeling with strategies, and allowing people to understand the consequences of their actions, it puts the onus on sometimes their actions more so than just the products show.

Michelle Bannister
And I think it’s really important that in this process, that they understand the strategies because you could walk away with a best diagnosis and prescription, but if they don’t take the pills, and they don’t trust your advice, then it’s kind of all a waste of time. So it’s really that engagement process, the building trust, the confidence that educating them in the process that they’ll walk away and take on board your advice.

Fraser Jack
Yeah, I think that’s very much like standard. Coaching one on one isn’t allow that allow the client to be able to, you know, come to the conclusion, take ownership and want to make the changes rather than just sort of telling them what they need to do and letting them understand that, you know, these are, these are the consequences of their actions, and they have the opportunity or the choice to change their present. Michelle, thank you so much for joining us in this episode number two of our five part series, we look forward to catching you in the third episode. Geoff, thanks for joining us again in the second episode.

Geoff Ivanac
Oh, my pleasure, always good to be on your show. Right now.

Fraser Jack
Now we’re talking about strategy and product and certainly the difference between strategy and product and making sure that we keep those two things separate in this, this profession that we’re in. Tell us a little bit about your process and what you do around, you know, with the conversations with clients when it comes to strategy, versus, or and then product. So I’ve

Geoff Ivanac
got, I’ve got several distinct phases. So I have an estate planning process. So that’s more or less, I use the software that I use to help outlined a client’s current situation, but then then I would, then I would sort of describe and describe the outcomes for them, and the key things they need to consider so, so that so I guess that that one is a little bit easier, because I’ve been doing that for a long time, and it does come quite automatic, or I can size up situation quite quickly, no matter the scale, and, and heavy books and other things which I use as part of that process. Now, I other strategy, so I do use a tool, where I probably an important tool that I use is, I’m actually quite, I like to look help the clients understand their goals, I don’t like the situation where you assume the client knows what their goals are. Because who knows how much you need for retirement, that is got to be a very unique requirement. And yet, the whole industry is about you need X dollars for retirement. So I’m very big on helping the client to understand what their goals are, and what life looks like for retirement, even if, even if they’re not even retiring. So, and then it’s a matter of working backwards, and then filling in the dots for them. And so say, so that that could take on many different roads. And then the financial advice is all different, depending on what the outcomes are and where they see themselves. So I, I find that I would spend two or three meetings on that side of it, rather than sitting there in front of them and filling out a form and writing down what their goals are. Does that make sense? Right?

Fraser Jack
Yeah. So you’re co creating those goals with the client. As in you don’t say, what’s your goal, you say, for this to happen? Do you want it to be here, here? Or here? Or are you are you getting deeper into that sort of conversation? What is what is what is breakfast look like in retirement? Or like how deep do you go?

Geoff Ivanac
How deep so as so really are sort of like in another way I give them the platform for them to to fill in the to correct their own life to fill in the chapters of their life. I don’t tell them what it should look like, I just give them the platform, and then give them that they’re not provide them with the tools to help that make to help him to make it happen. So So quite often, they don’t know what is possible. And so it’s about exploring the possibilities and and getting them to lift, lift their vision or to look much broader. So rather than very narrow, and and a big part of my job is to help them avoid pitfalls, and making poor choices about the current situation and what they should be aware of. In the future.

Fraser Jack
Yeah. And so with those pitfalls, you’re obviously pointing those out, because often people wouldn’t see them coming.

Geoff Ivanac
Oh, no, no, very rarely. Yeah. So it could be Well, the obvious one is not having an estate plan is the pitfall there is the they get sick, or they might die or something tragic. And there’s no, there’s no plan. There’s just total disarray. And they’re the fact their life for their families impacted forever, or they did worse. There’s could be fighting disharmony, all sorts of issues on that estate planning side.

Fraser Jack
Yep. Excellent. And by the time you’ve done that, and you really know them very well, and you start, then you start talking about, you know, get rid of the pitfalls, sort them out, let’s let’s make sure the contingencies are in place, then look at what the possibilities could be. And then as you said before, broadening the horizon on what possible it’s possible.

Geoff Ivanac
That’s right. Yeah. So I like to plan to 100 and then work back, so and that helps. So it gives the clients a bit better timeframe to work in. So the 65 may become a 75. And that gives us an opportunity as to what can you do right now to improve your life or to help you do what you really want to do in life, not just follow some track which has been laid out for you by someone else, right

Fraser Jack
and then so so you’re able to then look at some modeling around that and then look in and discuss different strategies with the client they can can assist.

Geoff Ivanac
Exactly and that could be even what they’re doing for a living succession plan for their business. A whole range of different things which might not not, might not otherwise have discussed. If you were going to live, for example, could be something like that. Yeah, if you remove

Fraser Jack
product from the conversation altogether, we’ve been talking about strategies, a lot of those strategies could be habits or decisions that can be made within and around the family or the relationship or the all sorts of things, how you know, where they want to sit their goals and their sights, all these all of these things are strategies, I guess.

Geoff Ivanac
Yes, for sure. And also how they use their money. So it’s not just about slugging it away for 20 years to have the retirement, which someone else says you should be having. It’s about using that money now to enjoy life, and to prepare themselves for a long future.

Fraser Jack
Yep. Fantastic. And, and as you said, before, a lot of your you said a couple of meetings, what sort of, what was your average meeting process be with with a new client?

Geoff Ivanac
Yeah, so I initially had a, quite an initial reading is quite broad. And it’s really understanding how the client came to be in their position today, what what’s influenced them over their life journey, so that and sort of, you know, try and identify a few gaps, I cover five different areas. So that’s an initial 45 minute meeting. And then once they’re engaged after that, and then we probably have another four or five meetings. And because you have to remember, there’s two estate planning meetings in there, so that they’re actually proper meetings. So not I’ll send you down the road to the local solicitor type estate planning. So that that helped. That’s why there is so many meetings involved.

Fraser Jack
Yeah, it’s, it’s certainly more and more talking to people, the more and more they’re spending more time in this initial process with new clients, obviously, bringing them on and part of the panel a bit upfront, which we’re not covering today, but is around like, you know, setting the expectations of that upper front and letting them know that it’s going to be a long process. Does that mean that you have our you know, a look at are able to look after fewer clients or take on fewer new clients,

Geoff Ivanac
if you’re physically it’s not possible to have a lot of Mater clients when you’re when you follow that type of process? Because it is very, it’s fairly hands on and it’s quite a building out quite a deep and meaningful relationship with a client.

Fraser Jack
Yep, yep. Fair enough. You you are looking after a lot of things therefore a lot of things to to get in place at the beginning, but also a lot of things to review. Become review time, Mark. Geoff, thanks so much for catching up on this particular episode episode two. We look forward to catching you in the next episode, we start talking about using visuals for engagement.

Geoff Ivanac
My pleasure. Thank you Fraser.