#21 Francois du Toit – Transcript

SUMMARY KEYWORDS

people, clients, financial planning, financial services, decision, big, point, change, problem, build, place, business, cfp, started, day, advisor, episodes, find, call, thought

SPEAKERS

Francois du Toit, Louis van der Merwe

Louis van der Merwe 

Welcome to another episode of Financial Planners, South Africa. Today, I’m very honored to have my friend Francois du Toit. Join us for a conversation about how we got into the industry, what he’s up to now and his views on financial planning of the future. fronteira, thank you so much for joining us.

Francois du Toit 

Thanks, Lou, feels like this has been overdue. So really excited to be here today. And to be able to chat you

Louis van der Merwe 

finally the tables are turned, you do this for a big part of your life where you speak to people that promote the positive evolution of financial planning. And today, we get to talk a little bit about Francois. And I want us to start off with where things started. Now maybe give us that kind of summary of how fragile got into the financial services industry,

Francois du Toit 

I think quite by mistake, or by chance rather not by mistake, but but by chance. When I was when I left school, and way back in 1994, I finished in 93. And then 94, sort of visited the University of the Free State for a little bit and then decided studying is not for me. So they joined the workforce at Standard Bank, which is one of the big banks. And I was there for for three years. And then one day I got the school where this guy says that I don’t know him, like he lived in the same town as me. But he was a broker consultant at one of the big insurance companies. And he said to me, like I need to come and pay him a visit. And when they no idea why. And then when he was telling me about, you know, consultants get a company call on a cell phone and entertainment allowance. I see way, way too, I saved my CV, and no clue what I was getting into. That was quite a process. I think it took about three months, all the all the things but that was sort of my thing. And I quite clearly remember we were not tracked very first day when I started. They were sending me like to weird places to go and collect things. And like typical admin, like you the newbie rookie, and I was young, I was like 22 at a time and one of the youngest consoles that they’ve ever pointed. And I sit there, I think to myself, rancher, what did she do. And I had no clue. So it took about another two years from day to realize what this was all about. And sort of from there, my journey started. And it’s always funny, they always say, you know, I’ve tried to get out of financial services quite a few times, but it’s like it keeps on pulling me back. It’s as if this is the place where I needed to be. But also, you know, that I started off as a consultant, and I was an advisor at some point. And I was in management. And in all these, like, sort of almost everything in financial services. I was trying to find my place. And that took that was quite a journey. It took me a while if I started back in 1998 in the industry, it really took me up until 2015, end of 2015 to really get my place and to understand sort of what’s my calling where I want to be, what is it what role I want to play, but I’m still in financial services. And yeah, but that’s just as like a short background on how I got into the industry. So yeah, it was quite a journey.

Louis van der Merwe 

Franciois, what was the thing that you know, made it made you stick it out for so long? Because that’s quite a long time to, you know, feel uncomfortable. And to find that spot?

Francois du Toit 

I think the variety and the the continuous change, because I get bored very quickly. So what are the things that they think that I can say about financial services, it’s the it’s the constant change the constant movement, new challenges. And then the one thing that I did like, because for a long time, I dealt with a certain group of financial advisors, like if you as a consultant, look off the advisors, you have your what we call the unit, and you would look after you have those relationships. So there was stability, but there’s also this change. And then also I love numbers. So the calculations, the technical side really, like appealed to me. So as I got to learn more about that, specifically, when I was a consultant, I can tell you, in 2002, I was an advisor at one of the big banks. And I got to attend a course by 18 Moray, I don’t know if you know, at Emory, but they were like the training people in in the industry back then. And it was When Adrian and his son hm. And I went to this the very first time that I sat, it was a five day course on estate planning and estate and financial planning. And I was sitting then I will clearly remember the Thursday, I sat back and I thought to myself, like I want to do what these guys do. But I was focusing on a completely different things. I wasn’t focusing on the training stuff, which I’m doing today, I was focusing on that they consult with clients, charge them a fee, and don’t tell them anything. You know, that’s all they do. They leave that up to the adviser they support advisors, but from the advice point of view, and I thought to myself, That’s what I want to do. And that was back in 2002. And I think that really got me hooked at the end of the day because the way I viewed things, the value I could add to financial advisors after all of that experience. That’s really where I think I would say my career took off in financial services and when I thought like, I love this environment. So I think that’s sort of the two things. The one thing is this ever changing environment, and then the fact that I saw what they did. And I love that

Louis van der Merwe 

I love this concept of kind of exploring and seeing what works for you and getting comfortable with change. It’s something that’s come up with quite a few people that we’ve spoken to that we need to get comfortable with things changing, because that is the only constant

Francois du Toit 

Yeah, is the only way you can grow. You know, everything is the same every single day. And you know, there’s what is there to look forward to. And I know that some people really love the, the, like, they know what to expect, they know exactly what’s going to happen, no surprises, but life just doesn’t work like that. And, you know, I’ve recently gone through another change. And that learning curve in the beginning is so unsettling, it is so frustrating, to be honest. But once you get to the other side of that, you know, it’s just you look back, and you thought there was nothing, you know. So yeah, that’s what I love. And I’m a little bit competitive as well. So, you know, you throw all those things in the mix. You know, no day is the same for me. And I think that’s what I love most

Louis van der Merwe 

makes for really good recipe, but I’m sure there was times we use it didn’t make the right decision, like second guessing yourself. Tell us a little bit about that. Because I think we all have those days. But the difference is how do you get through that? Yeah,

Francois du Toit 

I think, yeah, I can keep you busy for two episodes, just just on those. Lusa? You know, I think about there’s a few things that I’ve done, decisions that I’ve made that I wouldn’t say I regretted it. But I very quickly realized that this wasn’t for me. And I think sort of the challenge that you sit with is if you’re like me, and you’re very inquisitive, and you’re trying to find your place, and you’re trying to figure out what is it that you’re supposed to be doing? You know, knowing that you need to need to be and want to be in financial services is one thing to find exactly where in financial services can be quite a journey. And it was. And yes, there were times that were not like, you know, I mean, I had a very good stent at the the insurer that I sort of alluded to earlier, it was a good stunt, I learned almost everything that I got there. You know, even when I know that I learned from them, and I got to meet so many people build my network built my relationships. But then it gets to a point where now it starts getting that one on the same. And then you start looking for things. And sometimes things come to you and you think like, this is the logical next step. So some of that, like I made decisions, you know, to join other companies where like, within a very short space of time, I decided like, no, no, this is not working for me. Because you’re not a good fit for everyone, and not all places is a good fit for you. And I must say that that is one of the most uncomfortable places to be because you’ve just gone through this change. And then very quickly realized, like, Oops, you know, maybe this is not for me. Now the one thing that I can say is that I’m very good at making a decision. And then just, you know, I’m never hold ransom for where I am. I speak to so many people who go like, I don’t want to do this, I really want to do this. But you know, I’m now so close to retirement or I can’t move like I’m different. I just go like, I’ll figure it out. Sometimes that has put my wife through a lot of stress and a lot of pain, which I’m grateful she’s still around. But it’s, you know, it’s really those things where I’ve never been afraid to make a change. But I must say I think some of the toughest things is when you have to face the fact that you made a decision that turns out not to be the base for you, but also believe it is a step in the next like, what is next? It’s just a maybe a little detour. Or maybe it’s just to get you on to that route. Because if I didn’t make that decision and got to that point where I felt like, Okay, this was the wrong decision. I think that’s the problem that we sometimes do we get married to the outcome, what do we want, instead of just saying like, Why did I make this decision and committing to the decision and not worry about the outcome. So that was one of the biggest lessons for me during all of these tough times is that I may make a decision today and I must make peace with it that I made this decision for whatever the reasons were. And even if I didn’t consider it properly, and it doesn’t work out, it’s not my fault. It is just where is this leading to next? You know, so I think it also got a got to do and it sounds like I’ve got everything figured out maybe but I don’t, but it’s just for my experience that you know, just just continue and continue on your path and then it will work out and it does find its way.

Louis van der Merwe 

Yeah, there’s this idea of the sunk cost fallacy, right? That you hold on too tightly to the things that brought you to where you are now and saying, okay, you know, if I have to do this over, don’t think about all the time spent building building something up and then say okay, we kind of have to figure this out, going forward, which it sounds like you You have managed to master. So

Francois du Toit 

I wouldn’t say master, but definitely, you know, doesn’t bother me as much anymore. And I think that exactly that way you feel like you’ve gone down so far, or you’ve gone down so far down this road, that you have to now stick to it, you have to see it through, because you’re not a quitter, you know, and always get that picture of that, I don’t know if you’ve ever seen that picture where somebody is holding on to a rope with someone so so there’s two people one on each end of the rope and the one is hanging on for dear life doesn’t want to let the other one go. And that rope starts cutting into their arms. And just Letting go means that it’s fine. You know, what happens after that has nothing to do with you. But it’s that letting go. And not saying like, I have to hang on for dear life. You know, just just, I think acknowledge that something isn’t working for you acknowledge that you so unhappy, or acknowledge that you are extremely happy, whatever your situation may be. And often, I must say like, when my children are still in home, you know, it does influence your thinking it does influence your decision making, you know, it’s not as easy as I make it sound. Because you have to look in, like if your wife looks into your eyes and saying, like, No, I don’t see anything happening. I don’t see things moving, I don’t see progress. You tell me all these things. And they all make sense. But I’m not seeing like any difference. You know, those are the artists times do to actually go through and then you know, there was a there was a time back in 2015. I was in Bloemfontein. And I’ll never forget, and I was driving, I was there to do training and like, sort of the same sort of discussion and my wife, like we had this thing. And in that moment, I just decided, You know what, all I need is myself, like, I will show every single person that this is my vision, and I can do this, you know, but going through that, and then you know, having to talk constantly. And I think that’s the big thing. You have to communicate and talk all the time, which is what we did. And it wasn’t until 2018, you know, so that’s another two and a half years later, that she one day said to me, I can see something changing, you know, and that was the moment like I went like, wow, okay, so so we are now moving in the right direction. And it’s those things like, if you can really believe in what you want to do, and you have a very clear vision, then after you have figured it, figure it out to say, well, this is how I’m going to do it or have an exact plan. But you definitely need to if you really believe in it, you know, then you can make it happen. And yeah, so let me first stop there because like I can go on and on.

Louis van der Merwe 

I’m wondering kind of what happened in 2018. You know, what was that tipping point for you that your wife said, Oh, actually, I can see this vision play out now that Francia has.

Francois du Toit 

So there was a lot of things that I had to learn, like, you know, a lot of things like for instance, like, I mean, I would write my technical skills extremely I like I’m very confident in my technical financial planning skills, my skills around technology and those kind of things. And, but, and I thought that was enough to sort of build my business and to get people to come to my training and to ask me to come and talk some way and present somewhere. And it wasn’t, because there’s a lot of things that goes around it. And that I had to learn the hard way, I would say, and because of that I lost a lot of confidence, since I started with this particular part of my life in 2015 is that you don’t believe that you’re going to get a deal or you don’t believe that somebody sees your value. I think that was the worst for me where you listen to other people who do what I do. And then you go like, you know, it’s not me. And then the more I started listening to what they were saying I was going like, what I say that I do that, oh, I have, I believe something different from them. You know, and then as as I started very, very small. I mean, there were people that believed in me from day one. But I mean, there weren’t enough, unfortunately. So it was very odd in the beginning, you know, and I just stuck to it. And I learned now it’s easy for me to look back now and say, if you just do that a little bit, just focus on that first deal. The second deal, don’t worry about the size, don’t worry about your pricing, don’t worry about you know, anything, just make sure that you get a deal number one, because that builds confidence. And then over time, as you build your brand and you build your name, the other things just falling in place, if I go back 2015 1617 I can’t tell you how many meetings I had where I was doing proposals and talking to people and then getting very excited and you give them a knock and they and then everybody wants to sort of cut your prices and wants to do that. And then from 2018 I think as things started slowly building you know, I had a recurring customer so clients that came to us from the previous year, so it was sort of the same kind of proposal, the same kind of thing and things just continued. And my confidence started building. And and I must say Louis, I think you know it started changing in 2018 Because from 2015 to 2018. I did a lot of work like I studied sales I studied A lot of stuff in terms of personal development, you know, my self awareness, I’ve heard all that kind of stuff I’ve really spent a lot of time on. And I think as time went on, the biggest thing for me was sales, by the way, so having that conversation, to really connect with a client and just understand and then you know, sort of deliver or offer them what it is that they are looking for. And believing that you can actually do that. Because that imposter syndrome thing has been on my back for for so, so long, it doesn’t matter how many people told me otherwise. But I think things really ramped up because of that. And then from 2020, obviously, when we started the show, things just went bananas. So there, there was a, like exponential change from from that point,

Louis van der Merwe 

front, I want to pause a little bit on the on the sales conversation, because sales is often a dirty word. In our industry, you know, you get people that are either very comfortable knowing that they need to sell or you get people that you know, have this real NT sales, I guess not understanding that sales is an important part of any job or any product or service that you will deliver. How did you go about honing your sales skills.

Francois du Toit 

So it started off with watching, you’re gonna laugh at me, but like, I watched a lot of Gary Vaynerchuk videos in the beginning. I think he pumps one up. And although that’s not his intention, but but just seeing so I was I was just watching very clearly what he was doing and that kind of stuff, but also listening to the messages until he until I got to a point where I’ve heard him say this before, I’ve heard him say this before you start, because in the beginning, you start following someone new year, all these new things, and it’s fantastic, and you get excited and all of that. But I think that was sort of the start. But the real big start was my mindset because I told myself and I’ve said to so many people, I’m not a salesman. You know, I don’t like selling your I don’t never want to do it. When I was an advisor, somebody asked me what do you do today, I’m a broker tomorrow, I’m a financial advisor, they call myself a financial planner. And I realized, like, I didn’t know what I was. And it’s because of like how they got to see me. So I was so infatuated with the fact that I don’t want, not what how I want them to see me, but rather I don’t want them to see me. And that was a big thing for me. And I just then decided, so where things change is actually when I sold my practice in 2016, because I was in practice until 2016. And then I went full on into the training stuff. And suddenly, I experienced a different mindset or sort of changed my mindset. But it was so much easier. Because I didn’t have this baggage that I sort of built up for myself over the years because don’t see me as somebody who sells policies or don’t see me as someone who does X, Y, or Z. If you don’t sell, you’re dead. There is no business in this world that will survive. Without selling when even nonprofits have to sell. Like there’s no way like even to get donations, it’s a selling process, you know, you don’t get anything for free, you got to work for it. But you also need to sell your dream, your vision, your purpose, your mission, what it is that you do, why you do it, and doesn’t matter. Because because you know that there’s, there’s a huge shift in financial services away from certain things to other areas, but you still have to sell and to sell simply means in my mind, that one you need to connect with the person that you want to help and it has to be a good fit. That’s really what what selling is about if we can determine whether we are a good fit or not. The rest is a conversation and falls into place. You know, so I mean, there’s a lot of methodologies, a lot of frameworks, a lot of process that you can follow in terms of sales. But I think that sometimes, you know, when you’re new to this, it gives you a framework to talk around. But at the end of the day sales should just be a conversation, but you should also know how to look for certain things to know that you’re not wasting your time because not everybody is a good fit. So that’s what sales today is about for me is finding that good fit. And the rest is is actually then easy.

Louis van der Merwe 

I guess once it’s a good fit, and it’s a mutually beneficial relationship, the sales process takes care of itself.

Francois du Toit 

Exactly. And the only mention an important thing, like one of the companies I worked for, for a little bit, they, they said something that I truly believe in and that I still tell people today whether it’s a partnership or whether whatever it may be, you know, in a financial advice, sort of situation, what they said is that they wanted the client to benefit the advisor to benefit and the company to benefit. So if all three of them don’t benefit then you know there shouldn’t be a relationship there and it’s the same in a partnership if both if both partners don’t benefit you know and both don’t contribute in whatever way is never going to work if it’s just one one person so that’s really what sales is about is to determine that and as you said you know if you have that the rest takes care of itself and it just happens

Louis van der Merwe 

franchise is a famous article by Kevin Kelly called 1000 true fans way talks about you know, getting getting your people on the bass, you know, getting them excited and getting the right people and it sounds like you just had to find the right spot, and then get the right people so that you can go into this new phase where people are saying I can start seeing franchise vision.

Francois du Toit 

Yeah, but I think like you touched on such an important thing. Like, it’s, it’s so hard for people to see what you see, I don’t believe that there’s like, if that happens, that’s special. But I mean, I think about my wife, my family, like, still, my mom and dad was like, Mom, but what do you do? So they don’t get it, they don’t understand. And, and that’s the hardest part when you start feeling alone, and you’re the only one who sees what you see. But you listen to any great business that I started, like, many of them started like that. And, you know, it’s just the fact of because a lot of people tell you know, or try and warn you or try and discourage you, for whatever reason it might be. If you really believe in that little voice inside of you, you don’t give up, you just push through. And somewhere you will, you’ll there will be somebody who sees it as well. And they start following and they start, and that’s exactly what happened. And suddenly, there’s three people and four people and five people and slowly but surely it grows. And, and that’s sort of where you get to a point where you say, Oh, well, now this thing is getting life. It’s not just me who sees it anymore, but it does take you know, some things will always happen quickly. You know, think about zoom, how quickly people started using that. And teams and those things. When we went into lockdown. It was overnight almost, although they’ve been around for a long time. You know, but other things take so much longer. But I think it comes down to the same thing. If you’re in the right place at the right time and you prepared, you know, When opportunity comes, you will be able to take advantage of that as well.

Louis van der Merwe 

Yeah, once you get comfortable with that change, you know, it can be a lonely place, because you can be the only person that is saying, Okay, I’m pushing, pushing the chain,

Francois du Toit 

and you therefore long sometimes get to get comfortable with yourself.

Louis van der Merwe 

On that note, I mean, Francia you, you’ve created a personality within the financial industry, and and there’s only a few other people that have managed to do that successfully. And it’s great to hear your approach that you’ve taken. But you know, when did that tipping point happen, like, what happened that that franchise all of a sudden became a household name for financial advisors?

Francois du Toit 

Yeah, it was, it’s a simple thing I did, which I wish I did a long time ago, but didn’t have the means to do so a long time ago. But when when locked down came in 2020, I was probably the most afraid person in South Africa, if not the world. And I thought to myself, this is the end of my business. This is not going to survive, you know, like, all these things. And I just thought to myself, I need to do something. And then one day, like, in March, I was watching a guy called Pat Flynn, from what is this from SBI according to the name of the podcast, but what he was doing, he started going live every single day on YouTube. And I thought to myself, like I can do that for financial advice because like we got in and because we just heard that we going into level five lockdown and starting to understand what that meant in it and so forth. And I thought to myself, you know, I need to do something to keep my mind off of the things that because I have this tendency like when I stress a lot, it always numbs me and I do nothing. It sometimes take me a week of just thinking, thinking thinking and for a week I did absolutely nothing. And I just thought to myself, I can’t do this, I’m gonna go mad. And I decided to go live every single day. We started off with doing it on YouTube and LinkedIn. And yeah, then sort of the first episode there was one personal Terrence Dolan was there. And he asked me, I was watching it the other day, he was asking me questions. And now Sherlock, I owe him a huge steak or a coffee because he didn’t leave me alone for that hour. But I also then because the format was going to be just a q&a. I’d be chopped up up, you asked me questions, I answer questions, I help you think through things, maybe whatever. And he but in that first episode, like halfway through, I thought to myself, No, this is not going to work. I need to come up with topics to talk about and give people a reason to ask questions because I think everybody was in such a space where they didn’t know what to do. They were also stressed they were also worried and and that’s what we did. So slowly but surely, those first 10 episodes like we went live every single day and we did several 75 days and I think that’s where it started because in that level five level four lockdown period, people were talking about it and they were sharing it and they were like really that’s how we sort of built a little bit of a following there. And he didn’t I mean I think realized after the 50th episode what’s happening because I thought it was just a show with an audience and then suddenly you saw people connecting in the in the in the chat you know live they would talk to each other say I do each other ask each other questions, answer each other’s questions. And then I did my bit and I started realizing that this is starting to be a little Have a community all by small, you know, but that’s what we, what what we did. And I think that’s where it started. And that was really the tipping point for for me is when, like, just the right place at the right time, I think, which seemed to be a crazy idea. But because there was no plan, there was no strategy, there was no reason other than please not, don’t let me go mad. That was That was smart. And I think that’s a big lesson now that I think about it, Louis is that you do something, sometimes do something for no reason at all. And it turns around, and it becomes the best thing that you’ve probably done.

Louis van der Merwe 

Wow, it sounds so therapeutic, you know, having people come in and join and almost having to share what they’re going through for 75 days in a row, knowing that you’re not alone in this and you know, in our industry, you can often feel alone. Now you might be running your practice by yourself. Or you might be struggling to find clients. And you know, you made these people not feel alone. And thank you for that. No, it’s

Francois du Toit 

a pleasurable Yes. Yeah, they made me feel not alone. I think that was the biggest thing. So it’s Yeah, but it’s just such a privilege.

Louis van der Merwe 

What’s the learnings that stand out for you now? What would you have done differently in those first 75 days? Knowing what you know? Now?

Francois du Toit 

That’s a good question. I don’t know. It feels like everything just worked out the way it should have. But if I were to do it from scratch today, I don’t know. Like, I don’t want to change anything about it. Because it’s it was such a such organic, genuine from the right place, experience that I wouldn’t want to change anything, if I were to do it differently, I want to start it today would probably be for a marketing and branding reason, you know, which would be completely different. Which was and funny, those are the two things that was the unintended consequence of what I did. But as I said, I still today, I don’t really have a plan, all we did is we change the format a little bit, we make it a little bit more, we’ve got different segments, different people coming on the show. It’s not just Migos, it used to be just me for an hour talking about a topic or I would be interviewing a guest for an hour. And and we’ve changed it up, we’re also doing a little bit of panel interviews and things like that, you know, so we try and change it up and make the quality better. Sometimes I broadcasts from weird and wonderful places, if the internet allows two of them. One was great. The other one was supposed to be great. It wasn’t so great. But that’s what I want to do, I actually want to go traveling with a show and broadcast from anywhere in the world, a few places go. So we’ve got some people I’m talking to like that I can travel, you know, go visit them, and then do a show from there. So those are some of the some of the ideas, but I can’t, there’s nothing you’d said I would change. It was just I think the experience that I had, and and the learnings from a personal point of view has been so great that I wouldn’t want to change anything. To be honest,

Louis van der Merwe 

your people don’t always see the hard work that has gone into, you know, having a very successful channel and speaking everywhere, they don’t see often talk about the kind of overnight success that you know, took 10 years or 15 or 20 years. Sure. It’s not always as easy. And you know, having enough time to build that up, I think is important. Like did was there a time where you were you said hey, I need to change. And this is something that I that I’m not going to stick with during those 75 days. No,

Francois du Toit 

not once a is the weirdest thing because I do have a problem sticking to things. I would start something and then get bored with it. This is the one constant in my life. Like the one thing I’ve started exercising stop, I’ve died, I’ve stopped. I’ve done all weird and wonderful things like you know, creating all different kinds of content. But this is the one constant in my life, we now know, 147 episodes since we started. And I mean obviously 75 and 75 days went like that we went through twice a week, and then now just once a week on a Friday. But it’s yeah, it’s just something that it’s just part of who I am now. So it’s like we do this and we arrange things and you know, have topics for for things to talk about. And sometimes I run out of topics, but you know, it’s always there. It’s the there is just no. Yeah, at this point, like if I think about my podcast, so we started actually propulsion, the podcast back in 2019. And it went very well for, I don’t know, 1516 episodes, and had very good success with that podcast. And then I stopped because I got busy. And where’s the show? We’re on 147 AP search, you know, so it’s like my baby, it’s like, I’m not letting go.

Louis van der Merwe 

You’re just showing up and there’s no one holding you accountable. There’s no one saying hey, front, easy to do this. Okay, my

Francois du Toit 

the community because I made them a promise. So and I think that’s maybe the big difference is when I started. I said on LinkedIn, I sent in my email to everybody that I’m going to do this every single day, whereas I didn’t tell anybody about the podcast like I committing to do X Y I just started the podcast. And maybe that’s the that’s the thing that was the big difference is the fact that I say to everybody, and I know a lot of these people personally so like you can’t, you know, gone go back on a promise like that. And now it’s sad, but I think it’s just so they know I’m being held accountable, like nobody’s voting me or asking me Have you done this? Have you done that? I’ll be held accountable,

Louis van der Merwe 

if tricked yourself into being accountable? Yes. Francia, from your discussions with financial planners, like what are the themes that you see play out? What are the things that specifically younger financial planners are struggling with? You know, we were we are now in a in a world that’s, you know, predominantly digital that has changed overnight? We have what are the things that stand out for you?

Francois du Toit 

I think there’s a there’s a few things, and maybe some of them, you know, sort of aligns with, with my journey as well. I think some of the oddest things is a way to start, you know, where do I find clients? You know, what is it that I want to do in the first place? What is it that I want to focus on? How do I get into this business? You know, where do I find a mentor? I think that’s a big thing. Because although you have a young generation and a much older generation, maybe if you if you look at our demographics, in terms of financial planning in South Africa, you know, you you sort of often don’t know where to start and what it is that you, you know, should I What should I do first, and what should I first focus on. And the one thing that I am seeing a lot more of is these different little, I don’t know, communities, bodies, memberships, I don’t know, call them what you want, that pops up all over the world, not not only in South Africa, that offers them this opportunity to be able to do this and to slot into somewhere where they can feel that they are supported. You know, unfortunately, it is so that you start in a certain area of financial services, you get taught in a certain way, you start in another area, you got to get taught differently. And it takes some time until you find your feet and have enough information in order to make your own decisions about what you want to do. And I think maybe one of the things that that is really missing is how to it’s not career guidance, or counseling or anything, but it’s in that vein way. We need to give younger the younger generation more of a have exposure to what are the different options you have within financial planning in South Africa. And where’s the best place for you? Like, what’s what resonates with you and what speaks to you? And a very interesting discussion with somebody yesterday, where a group of RT guys have created an app. And now they’re looking to also bring it started FSB, you know, they think it’s just, oh, we’ve got this great business idea. And let’s do this. And then like, but there’s all these requirements for you to have an FSP in the first place. You know, so So how do we how do we cultivate I think the right behavior and the right focus. But also, you know, on the other end, the one thing that I’ve learned, Louis, is that, because the one thing that I despised, like more than anything else in our profession at the moment is when we start doing things differently, we love to point out those who still do it the old way, or like, how can you do this, and that’s not the right and look at these costs. And all of those things, I don’t think it’s doing us any justice, or any favors for that matter. As a profession, you know, we should just be focusing on on ourselves and saying, This is how we do it. This is what we believe, clients, young and old, have more than capable of making that comparison for themselves. We should be focusing on educating clients on you know, what is in their interest, you know, and understanding what it is that they’re looking for, rather than going, you know, but somebody who focuses still on products, you know, is like, that’s not the right thing. And this is why it’s going the way it’s going. And that’s what I really want want us to get away from, it’s just, let’s just focus on where we moving to, and focus on how we’re doing it better because we were all doing it like that at some point in time. Right. But as you get enlightened, and as you see more things, and as you start realizing, and also finding your own path, you get different ways of doing things, and you understand what is more valuable to your clients. And it’s again, that matter of how do you find a fit, because if you have clients who’s just looking for a product, they don’t want anything else, even though if they knew they could make other decisions. That’s still what they want. And you know, so there’s always a fit for everybody. So yes, I think I’m going off the point a little bit, but but that part for me is important is how do we tell the story in such a way that it’s positive, and that we highlight the good and not point out the bad all the time? Because that happens too often, in my opinion.

Louis van der Merwe 

That’s such an important point. And you know, it’s easier to kind of shoot someone else down and point out all the problems as opposed to, you know, what you’re saying is painting this picture and telling the story of what what the financial planning in their mind might be. And the marketplace consists of of many different product providers and a market where someone willingly pays very high fees, or someone willingly pays very low fees, how would you approach the change that we need? You know that we get to a point where financial planning has a standard that, you know, we clearly can define between different types of financial planning in franchise world? What would that look like?

Francois du Toit 

She’s like, that’s eye level question, right? Because I think there’s so many places to start, because you have to look at existing people in the profession. And you have to look at new people in the profession. And then you have to look at people interested in getting into the profession. And I think there’s different things that needs to be addressed for each one of those. And it is sort of, I think, to say, well, these these different disciplines, sort of maybe I don’t know, I would say, because if I look at where things are moving, I think about things like financial coaching, transitioners planning, you look at financial therapy, I mean, there’s all these different things, and all they really are, is that they are focusing on different needs that clients may have, you know, and then we’ve moved away, because we don’t like some of us, like myself, I don’t even want to sell products anymore. Because I believe I wasn’t a salesman, for example. And the value there was also I mean, there’s, there’s lots of reasons for why one would move one and move on why we have moved away from that. But at the end of the day, you got to say, well, you know, what are the different areas of financial planning that we focus on. And the other big thing really, that I think is a big sort of thing, because because I talk to a lot of advisors into a lot of companies. And what happens inevitably is that they would tell me, like, you know, guys are not interested in technical financial planning anymore, we use a legal specialist, or we use a better plan, or we use these people that stay up to date, like, we just have conversations with clients, we talk to clients, we, I have any problem with that. Because as the financial advisor planner, the person that’s giving the advice, you can never get away from that. So the point I’m trying to make is that, you know, back in the day, when I did my CFP in 2011, it was the pinnacle, like you’ve reached the pinnacle. And I think we’ve said this before you and I’ve spoken about this, I’ve said this on other other places as well. We now suddenly, that is expected of everybody that level of competence is there. And you and I as let’s say, I don’t practice anymore, but But I mean, you and as financial planning professionals should know those things. And we should, we should consider those things in the process. By the way, though, in the past, those were the things that we spoke about with the client, we now speak about other stuff, but that stuff informs this conversation so that we know the impact of what we are recommending advising or whatever we’re doing. And that’s the big thing. So now I think Clayton said this on a podcast that I were chatting to him that it’s it’s a ticket to the game. And it was such a nice way to sort of put it and and for me, that’s really what it is. It is like you have to have that. Now all this other stuff is where the focus is going to how do I engage better with clients? How do I talk better with clients? How do I understand, you know, how do I help clients uncover what it is that they really looking for, and really understand what’s driving their current behavior? And understanding, I think the other big thing is to understand, you know, what is valuable to a client? Because just because you believe something is extremely valuable, doesn’t mean that they see it the same way. And to know, do you walk away? Or do you adapt? Or what do you do in that sense? So, so that, for me is the missing piece at the moment, although there’s a lot of focus on things like coaching, etc. You know, it’s that the softer side, it’s been neglected for so long. And that includes sales. You know, it includes it includes coaching, it includes, you know, almost psychology, I would say, you know, so those kind of things of how do we help clients, for me, it’s at the end of the day, helping them make decisions, but they still we just need to enable their decision making and they need to make that decision. And then they must just have that comfort that somebody helped them get there. But they still did that because they take ownership of it, hopefully. But your The thing is, we can never get away from the technical financial planning, but I don’t know. And so that would be my view.

Louis van der Merwe 

Thank you, for sure. I think that’s a that’s a brilliant answer. And, you know, looking at the whole financial ecosystem that would then sort out these career tracks that people can see, oh, this is the path I need to follow to get to this specialization and you know, the ticket to the game is having a designation so that we can give professional advice through different pricing mechanisms. You know, sometimes it might be commission and sometimes it might be a invoice or monthly retainer. The financial transitioners Institute talks about a thinking partner and that’s such a great term right that you’re not making decisions on the client’s behalf. You’re helping them to unlock their potential, but you still need for you can’t get away from financial Planning, you still need to do the hard yards.

Francois du Toit 

Exactly, I always get good fascinated by people not looking at tax, for example, because like, No, I’m not a tax consultant or a tax, whatever. But it’s got such a like that, and costs are probably the biggest thing that has, or the two experts that have the biggest impact on wealth building, and it’s not a positive impact. So, you know, not to consider those or I don’t know, you know, relying on somebody else to do that. Somebody else can crunch the numbers and give you the data, but you still need to understand it. And you still need to have that knowledge in order to have a proper conversation. And, you know, as I fully agree with, with the with the thing about about having three specialized areas, and then a career tract, and I also believe that the certificate because you can’t have a profession without having certification, I mean, I’m looking at completely other areas in in business. So you think about, I’ve got friends who own a big roofing company, like they’ve built it up over the years, very successful. The roofing industry has no professional body, there’s no standards, there’s no ethics, there’s no nothing, they started one now, you go to anywhere else in the world, almost any other part of business, you will find a body, not necessarily professional body, but you’ll have a body that sets standards that sets the ethical boundaries, and the rules and so forth. And people who subscribe to that, you know, just are seen as more professional, more reliable, more credible than those who don’t. And although there’s been a big growth in CFPs, I think it’s going to go way beyond CFP or being a Certified Financial Planner. And that’s why you’ll see somebody is a CFP, and a CFP. And, you know, like there’s going to be multiple designations. A lot of people also belong to fees, for example, as a fiduciary specialist, or they have a step qualification and certification. So those are the kind of things that I think, doesn’t make you professional. But it does, it does add to your credibility and the value that you add, as well as the kind of business that you can bolt, I still believe that true professionalism comes from your behavior does not come from your qualifications or your certification, it absolutely comes down to behavior at the end of the day. So you need both, because great behavior without the knowledge is dangerous knowledge without the behavior is just as dangerous. So you do need both, but but the fact that you have these certifications doesn’t mean you’re professional. So. So I think those are the kind of things that we need to do have to have more clear direction. And, you know, how often do you say like, I mean, a consumer will be confused by what is the CFP in a CFT in a like, but if it’s very clearly defined, you know, maybe that’s going to help us change that.

Louis van der Merwe 

Yeah, this is such an exciting time to be in our profession, you know, we will get to see hopefully how these things play out. And it will probably be very different from what we are discussing, well, I’m

Francois du Toit 

pretty sure you will definitely see it out. Like, you know, I’m now getting closer to 50. So I’m not sure if I’ll make it. It’ll be in my lifetime. But we definitely this huge movement, and a huge change. And I think, also just to maybe bring this in layers, the role that technology is playing. And when people get it that technology enables us to do certain things, it is not the solution, it is not the replacement, it is not the product, it is not the value is simply a tool that makes things happen. And that makes things possible that we were not able to do without technology. And I think the more we can see that I mean, you were talking about like, what would I change? You know, I remember finding when I started my very first load those first, I would say I don’t know, 20 or 30 episodes even took me around an hour and a half or two hours to set up. Okay. And that was every single day that I had to do that. Today doesn’t take me 10 minutes. And the reason for that is that everything’s automated, everything has got templates, everything has got and the amount of time I’m saving, and yes, I know the process, obviously, because I did it so many times. But it’s the same in your business, you know, and you have to almost forever be curious about what is the latest things, you know, and but also, it doesn’t just help going out and looking at what is the latest technology you also need to sort of focus on but what is it that you’re trying to do? Where is where are your pain points? What is it that you’re trying to sort out and make easier for you and your business and your staff? And then go look for a solution. That’s actually the best approach to to follow. Because otherwise you start looking less like looking for a call. You’re looking at a million different cars, but you don’t know what you’re looking for in the first place. Like everything looks amazing. Francia Do you find that

Louis van der Merwe 

people define their problems accurately? Because there’s this tendency of wanting to just pick like you’re saying, I want to pick this car, or just tell me which guy I need to pick yet. What you’re saying is that we need to define the problem but I’m wondering how easy that is.

Francois du Toit 

It is that’s why we’re not doing it is because it is extremely difficult and sometimes you if you don’t know how to put it into words, it’s something that you feel it’s a frustration in your business, it’s something that have to do this again, or that how many times is that I’m doing this thing now? You know, those are the kinds of indicators that you need to explore that more and understand. Why is it that this is such a problem? And you know, if you’re in a bigger business, if you have staff or when this maybe multiple people in the business, is to talk to them, like, what is the experience? And what do they think is the problem and to really chat to two different people? And then also, I think, I think that a lot of people are not doing well, there’s a huge opportunity, for instance, with technologies for them to partner with a technology providers, and to educate them to explain, or do to share with them. This is my frustration, because they deal with so many different other people that they can maybe tell you, do you think it’s maybe this they can help you uncover this problem better? But but it does start with you, as a business owner, you as a financial advisor in your practice, to say, well, what are the things that’s causing me frustration? Because there’s a problem there? If it’s if it’s frustrating, I’m usually I would say most of the time, but also occasionally now it’s, it’s, it’s, it’s not easy to do, you can say that, you know, what, we spent too much time following up with clients, for example. But that doesn’t mean that’s the problem. That’s what you’re experiencing, you need to go now delve deeper of like, what are the things causing you to have to follow up so many times, you know, and then start digging deeper, and getting to the root cause of that. That’s where the difficulty lies,

Louis van der Merwe 

to my sounds like we need to train our people to stop complaining to say, hey, this thing, this thing is broken, how do we improve this, and then, you know, filter those problems down into, you know, actionable pieces that we can look at,

Francois du Toit 

and maybe also layers, that it’s not only looking at? I mean, obviously, we always tend to look at it from a from your business’s perspective. But what are the problems that your clients are facing from, you know, in terms of working with you? Or do we ever ask them? You know, what is the experience? Like? And, you know, what do you find can work better and, and probing those kind of things? So that coastlines will tell you, but they won’t offer that information, we have to ask them. And when we have to have a plan to engage with them and say, you know, we want some feedback, you’re sending them a link, how was your experience, like a nine out of 10? You know, that’s great, but it doesn’t tell you anything. So we really need to ask more particular questions, so that we get more specific answers from from that point, but But getting that data and information and insights from clients is, I think, a great place. Because it’s, it’s really, it’s a, which I talked about earlier, like being a partnership, you know, both needs to benefit. So it’s not only your frustration is in trying to make things more efficient in your business, it’s also making it easier for your client to do business with you. And sometimes, the things we do to make things easier for the business causes more frustration for the client. And that’s where we sort of miss out on the opportunity. So we need to understand the impact on them, but also like what they liked, and, and also remember, like they are experiencing, you know, change progress in other areas of their lives in other industries. And they go like, but if I can do this here, why can’t I do this with my financial planner, and those are, that’s where, where the drive will come from, you know, if you still have financial advisors saying, like, my clients don’t do technology, watch this space,

Louis van der Merwe 

I had mad Rhino on one of the episodes, and he just released a book where they talk about, you know, advisors being afraid of technology and how the advisor is actually, you know, equipped to deal with the human side of things and, and become the information station is the word that he used. And it was so refreshing to hear that, you know, technology has its right place, it doesn’t necessarily have to be the answer for everything. And we also don’t necessarily have to be scared of it.

Francois du Toit 

Yeah, absolutely. Great way, like information station. But that But definitely, and that’s not to say, it’s just a tool. It’s nothing else, nothing more. It is what it is. But it can make our lives so much better. It can can make things so much easier for clients. If we do it correctly. I just always use this example about filling in forms. My wife was complaining in the week. She had to go see a medical professional a few weeks back, what an experience like everything just easy just work. You could follow everything electronically, everything got sent. Now she’s going for another appointment tomorrow with another medical professional, and it’s still old school kind of forms that they didn’t send that at least before the time. But she was complaining about how hard it is and how difficult it is. So you know. And he said, Yeah, do we think about those small little things? So I’d say I fully agree with what he said.

Louis van der Merwe 

Brilliant Francia thank you so much for great conversation. If people want to reach out to you will learn more, what’s the best way for them to get hold of you?

Francois du Toit 

LinkedIn is the easiest. You’ll find me on LinkedIn. Just Francia duties at a if you just go look for that or just visit The search my name on LinkedIn, you will find me very active on there. And your server. So through that you can contact me or anything otherwise the website is propulsion. dot 0.0. We do we do a lot of training, we have a community. So there’s loads of things that we’re doing in order to help and support financial advisors. And I think the biggest thing of what we what we’re doing is, is the community that we’ve created, because it’s all like minded people forward thinking, professional, they care about each other, you know, it’s a small community, but it’s growing. And, and that’s the important thing for me, you know, and when when we start getting feedback around, like the things that people have implemented, and that have changed their business, and they lost dramatically, that’s when I get teary eyed. You know, that’s the thing. It’s not anything else. It’s it’s, it’s the change that happens because of what we share and what we share and what we help them to implement. At the end of the day, that makes a difference.

Louis van der Merwe 

Brilliant. I’m sure Terence is really happy that he showed up first, for your, for your podcast and your live stream and is still there. He’s been a guest on the show. And you can listen to you know what he’s implemented in his business. And it’s wonderful to see how everyone’s just so connected in this community, a global community at that moment, and thank you for the massive role that you play in that franchise.

Francois du Toit 

Cool. It’s a pleasure and thanks for the opportunity to be here.

Louis van der Merwe 

Thank you. Bye bye.